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honda 130s throttle problem

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lucky7

New member
Having increasing difficulty in shifting. Very hard to shift and now tougher to find neutral. Pulled boat 2 weeks ago for winter. Dealer says cables are fine and he has seen the problem many times and it is corrosion in the shift rod. Needs to take engine apart to fix. Price is about $3000 an engine. Does this price seem excessive? How much could the parts be? Boat is a 2002 grady with twin 130s with only about 275 hours. $6000 to repair the problem? Not sure if its worth fixing at this price or repowering. Any help with this problem would be greatly appreciated.
 
WHEW! Just my opinion here but methinks your "boy's" daddy told him very early in life an old saying amongst gougers. It goes something like this:

..."Son, if you're gonna be a GOUGER...be one helluva good GOUGER!"

I could certainly be wrong. It happened once before....BUT,

Sounds more like a cable, shifter or linkage adjust problem to me. And, also, sounds more like a $200 to $300 problem....TOPS!

PLEASE! Get a second and maybe even a third opinion because that just does NOT make any sense.
 
Ditto - get someone else to look at the boat. As an initial check yourself, disconnect shift cable at the engine and test the cable itself by operating it back an forth at the console. It should be smooth and easy. Then work the shift cable connector on the engine and see how that works. If stiff or difficult to operate drop the lower end and disconnect shift rod. and test again.
 
chawk_man said:
Ditto - get someone else to look at the boat. As an initial check yourself, disconnect shift cable at the engine and test the cable itself by operating it back an forth at the console. It should be smooth and easy. Then work the shift cable connector on the engine and see how that works. If stiff or difficult to operate drop the lower end and disconnect shift rod. and test again.
Click to expand...


Tough situation for me since the boat is already at the dealer ready for winterization/storage. I have no trailer, so they "have the boat." I am meeting with them on Saturday and they are going to show me the problem. If it is a corrosion problem, could it be that extensive and expensive of a repair?
 
I can't give you good advice on the likely cost. hopefully one of the tech's like Mike or Chris will jump in on this. Just sounds terribly expensive to me.
 
AGAIN, just my opinion but you actually have the WHOLE WINTER to think it over. That would "buy" you enough time to rent or buy a trailer (how did it get to the dealer in the first place?) or to contract with another mechanic to take a look and give you an estimate.

It really sounds as if you are being "pressured" into signing up for something you will probably regret. Take your time. You have to be your own advocate so proceed as if the boat belongs to someone else and you have been hired to take care of their interests and $$$. That mindset can sometimes work when dealing with something like this.

If hondadude is monitoring (and I'm sure he is) he may be able to point you toward some HONDA field service folks that might be of some assistance. Depending on your locale, you may be able to get someone from corporate out to take a look at what is going on here. Actually, it would be worth your while to pursue this, given the amounts involved, on your own even if no one else chimes in.

Take a camera with you to the "unveiling" and try to focus on getting some good, clear shots of the areas that they point out to you. TAKE NOTES! This will do two things on your behalf; it puts the dealer's personnel on notice that documentation is going to be preserved AND you can post those photos HERE for some of our best and brightest to look over as well as show anyone else, like another mechanic, what you're up against in the event that the dealer won't agree to allow anyone else to physically inspect the problem. Which, by the way, would be a VERY telling and informative move that should show that their motives are not totally altruistic.

SLOW DOWN should be the watch word of the day while you seek a positive outcome.

GOOD LUCK!
 
Thanks for the advice. I will take pictures and notes. The boat is hauled out and the dealer uses his trailer. The boat is in Ocean City, MD. Any other suggestions from anyone else would be appreciated.
 
All of the advice above is good advice.

Hard shifting could be caused by a bad shift box, a bad or kinked shift or throttle cable (yes a bad throttle cable can cause hard shifting), the shift shafts (as your dealer suggests), or the lower unit.

The shift cable gets kinked easily if you raise the engines all the way up and the cable does not have ample clearance in front of the engine. The kink is usually a couple of inches or so from the engine.

Hard shifting, in the 130, can be also be caused by the idle being too high. It will be especially hard to get out of gear. One way to check this is to try shifting with the engine off. You have to have someone rotate the prop until it locks into gear. If there is no change is how hard it is, it is not the idle.

When you have them show you the problem, both of the throttle and shift cables should be disconnected at the engine and the lower unit should be removed. If the lower unit is not removed, you can not really isolate the problem for sure.

If both the throttle and shift cables are disconnected, the shifter should move really easily.
If that is the case, then you should try to move the shift lever on the engine and once you move it out of the detent, it should be real easy to move. If it is really stiff the whole way, then the dealer is probably correct in their diagnosis.

If all that is easy, then it is in the lower units. Most unlikely that both lower units got hard to shift at the same time...but possible.

If they are right, here is what is going on....part #9 is what comes out of the lower case of the engine and the shift lever #13 is connected to. There could be some problems in part #13. http://www.boats.net/parts/search/Honda/Outboard Engine/2001/BF90A1 LRTA /SHIFT SHAFT/parts.html but they are thinking it is in parts #s 9, 24, 6, and 29 and the opening that 6 goes through. Make sure they can make sure that #13 is not the problem. You do not have to remove the engine to replace that.

If this is in salt water and seals #29 fail and allow water into the flywheel housing, salt can accumulate and bind things up. Even if it is fresh water, it can happen.

As for what it takes to fix if they are right....

You have to remove the lower unit, the midsection, oil pan, watertube, lower motor mounts, etc...then you have access to the bolts that allow you to remove the powerhead. There are still hoses and wiring that have to be disconnected around the powerhead, then it will come off.

There are probably about $200 - $300 worth of parts and seals to put it back together...maybe a little more if they include changing the water pumps, spark plugs, filters, oil, etc for winterization,

Hopefully, they are planning on changing the vertical shaft seals in the lower case and will inspect the bottom of the powerhead for rust and leakage from the steel plugs in the bottom of the powerhead.

All of this takes time to do and to make sure all is checked while it is apart...now is the time to replace whatever seals they can.

If all goes well it is a full day's job to disassemble and reassemble..that does not include fixing things that they find. Not hard, but there are a lot of steps and you do not want them to rush...so nothing is forgotten.

It is hard to second guess someone else's estimates...especially on a saltwater motor. Will all the bolts come out as they should, what will break, etc?

If it takes two 8 hours days (16 hours) each at $100/hr that is $1600 plus parts. So that could put you over $2000. If their hourly rate is $120/hr, then it is $1920 plus parts...getting closer to $3000.

Hope this helps.

As Jimmy says, since they have the boat in storage, you have all winter to decide....as long as they do not raise their labor rate or are giving you the "discounted" winter rate...which goes up in the Spring. It is a lot of money to spend to improve the shifting. However, if they are right, the shifting is not going to get any better on its own.

Mike
 
Mike, thanks so much for your detailed explanation. It will really help me when they show me the problem. Just to clarify, do you feel that the 16 hours labor are for each engine for an estimated labor for both engines of 32hours?

John
 
I threw out 16 hours as an example. I do not know everything that they are including in the estimate. I am sure, they want to get the boat off of their trailer as soon as possible, so they can use it to remove other boats from the water. So, they may be including some of the trailer usage in the estimate. They may also be including the winterization (gear lube, motor oil, filters, etc) and changing the water pumps.
For something this expensive, get them to give you a detailed breakdown in the estimate. There may be some contingency hours in the estimate for unknown problems that arise. There may also be time for diagnosis of the problem.

If it were me, I would quote the 16 hours. If it doesn't take that long, then I would charge less...and be a hero for coming in under the quoted amount. That is a lot easier than quoting 8 hours and then having to go back to the customer and ask for more money because you found something unexpected.

Not a very direct answer, but I hope you get the point.

Mike
 
WHOA! After reading Mike's last post, it looks as if my original estimate of what is taking place may be WAY off!...Alrighty then!

I hate to say this to you but I'm getting sticker shock and they aren't even my outboards! I would find it difficult to justify a $3000 shift problem repair on an outboard that only had 275 hrs. (what's that? a few oil changes?) knowing that it is likely to happen again...and fairly soon it would seem.

Your original concern about what would be the best course...repair or repower... has my full attention now.
 
After seeing the problem I can understand that the fix is more time intensive than anything else. The estimate is somewhere between 6000 and 7000 dollars just to fix this shifting problem, nothing else. The labor rate is 118/hr. Taking 6500 as a cost, minus 500 for parts(which is generous) it leaves 6000 labor. Divide that by 118/hr and you get 50 hours of labor! Doesn't this sound a little excessive? If this problem is fixed now, will this solve this problem for years or could it arise again? Can I use the boat next summer with this problem or will I be in danger of not being able to shift when docking? Is corrosion in this part of the engine a sign of more problems in the near future? I am really upset about this and am up at night worrying what to do. Any thoughts would be GREATLY appreciated.
John
 
Time to remove the lower unit / s and see if lower units can be shifted easily.-------Then check and see if problem is in the midsection or wherever.---Take this one step at a time.
 
It certainly sounds excessive to me....BUT;

Well, the BUTS are many...

I'm not there. I don't know this engine.

Mike, who is an ABSOLUTE pro and straight shooter has said that it really doesn't sound all that "way out there". I value his advice as GOLDEN...because it IS. And, I believe he DOES know these (yours) outboards....BUT...

...Have you made any attempt to get another mechanic to look at it and give you a competing estimate? We can speculate here all year long but finding a COMPETENT tech, in your area, to confirm or deny, with his own eyes, IN PERSON, what you are being told by this shop is the ONLY way, in my opinion, that you will know, absolutely, if these guys are blowing smoke and gouging you or not.

As I suggested before, if this shop is not agreeable to having someone else come in and give you an assessment, then that should raise a BIG, RED flag and would have me looking for another facility to help me sort it out.

It's too bad that this is happening to you. It's happened to all of us in one form or another...the plumbing...the electrician...the transmission goes out in the car...

....my septic failed yesterday and I am "up to here" with what THAT might cost (and something else! PHEW!) so I know what you mean about losing sleep over $"gettin' it fixed"$.
SUCKS!
 
Just wanted to thank everyone, especially Hondadude, for all of the advice and suggestions. I contacted another shop, they picked up the boat from the original dealer, and gave me an estimate for repairs in line with the estimate from Hondadude. Problem is fixed for $4000 less than the original estimate!!. Can't wait to launch in the spring. Needless to say, I will not be going back to the original dealer. Thanks again.
 
Good deal!

Was the problem in the shift shafts under the powerhead (having to lift the powerhead) or did it turn out to be something else?

Here is hoping Spring comes soon.....everyone can use the warm weather.

Mike
 
Mike,
The problem was the shift shafts as you said. the labor took 8 hours each engine, not the 25 each engine I was originally was quoted. thanks again!
 
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