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Helm switch wiring with diodes

O

outobie

Regular Contributor
Hi all

I’ve just replaced all my old toggle switches for my helm.

Batteries are are out of the boat dove haven’t tested yet. As I was driving back to the house it occurred to me that I may have wired them incorrectly.

The old old toggle switches had top lights in them that illuminated when the switch was on. Each old toggle had 3 terminals on the back
- battery positive
- load out to device
- common ground (for the tip light)

the new toggle switches are illuminated white when the switch is off and red when the switch is activated. They have 4 terminals on the back
- battery positive
- load out to device
- common ground (for the tip light)
- common positive for the tip light

being the the genius that I am I decided to jump the battery positive terminal to the tip light positive terminal.

Now its just occurred to me that by jumping positive for the tip light this way, the top light will always be on (with the battery switch on)

to remedy this situation I see 3 options

1) - remove jumper wire between battery positive and tip light positive. Create a tip light common positive daisy chained to each toggle switches tip light positive and attach that circuit to switched power from the ignition switch
Pro is that lights come on with ignition
Con is that I have twin engines so I would need to create a harness that connects my daisy chain harness to both switches ignition switch circuites with inline diodes to prevent back feeding current between engine harnesses.

2) - remove jumper wire between battery positive and tip light positive. Create a tip light common positive daisy chained to each toggle switches tip light positive and attach that circuit to the helm gauge light switch.
Pro is that lights come on with gauge lights
Con is toggle lights are off when gauge lights are off (most of the time)
solution could be to make the gauge light switch a 3 position switch:
position 1- gauge lights and toggle lights on
position 2 - all off
position 3 - tip lights only on (requires diode between terminals from position 1 to 3

3) - leave terminal jumpers between battery positive and tip light positive as is and add an extra switch on the existing Daisey chained common tip light ground.
pro don’t need to make new wiring harness or remove existing jumpers
con VERY LIMITED SPACE TO ADD ANY NEW SWITCHES

4) - leave terminal jumpers between battery positive and tip light positive as is and Replace existing gauge light switch with a dual pole dual position switch. the existing Daisey chained common tip light ground can be added to the extra pole on the switch
pro don’t need to make new wiring harness or remove existing jumpers or add a new switch. Also don’t have to worry about diodes
Con... don’t know if it’s safe to have switched ground and switched battery positive on a single toggle switch?

thoughts. What would do?
 
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  • Dash light switch wiring

    .................................................. ....................................tip light +
    Position 1 ..(Tip light common ground daisy chain) 1 / .....2 -- ....3 \ (to gauge lights)

    Position 2 ..........................................(ground bus) 4 | .................5 | (Bat +)

    Position 3 .........................(jumpered to terminal 1) 6 \ .....7 -- ....8 / (not used)
    .................................................. .................................... tip light -

    Position 1 = helm Lights all on - connects:
    * tip lights (Terminal 1) to ground bus (terminal 4)
    * gauge lights (terminal 3) to power (terminal 5)
    * terminal 7 also jumpered to terminal 6 for tip light switched ground
    * terminal 2 jumpered to terminal 5 for tip light unswitched positive

    Position 2 = all off

    Position 3: = tip lights only - connects:
    * tip lights (Terminal 1) to ground bus (terminal 4) via jumper to terminal 6
 
personally, i would not freak out on this until i tested. you should be fine as long as all the illumination power for the switches goes thru the key switch
 
o2batsea said:
personally, i would not freak out on this until i tested. you should be fine as long as all the illumination power for the switches goes thru the key switch
Click to expand...

It doesn’t go through the key switches. All switches are powered any time the main battery switches are on

My new switches have an extra light the original ones didn’t have.
 
As a general rule, any helm switch that operates a heater fan motor, wiper motors, pump motor, cabin lights, etc, should NOT rely on the key switch for power.
The key switch should operate the "ignition" circuit and the "starter motor solenoid" circuit only..... and occasionally the instrument back-lighting.

When the MBSS is making a battery selection (either batt #1 or batt #2), you should see power to each helm switch.

The down side to the illuminated switches that you are describing, would be the power draw when the MBSS is making a battery selection.
(I suppose if the tip lights are LED, the power draw would be minimal)


Depending on the type of switch illumination, you may be able to power the switch's "white illumination" ONLY with the NAV light circuit. This way the white illumination will not occur until your NAV lights are turned on.
That would still allow for the switch's "red illumination" during the use of that circuit regardless of day or night use.


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outobie said:
It doesn’t go through the key switches. All switches are powered any time the main battery switches are on
My new switches have an extra light the original ones didn’t have.
Click to expand...

OK..... when I read your first post, I did not understand it that way.

FYI.... the main battery switch is an MBSS...... (main battery selector switch.... also known as a 1-ALL/BOTH-2-OFF switch)

.
 
I agree the only thing on dash powered by the ignition switch should be the guages. All the lights and accys should be powered from the house circuit. Fused at the battery and through a master power switch to a fuse block and grounding bar. Dont add a ground to the master power switch so it is only lit when it is on?
 
RicardoMarine said:
OK..... when I read your first post, I did not understand it that way.

FYI.... the main battery switch is an MBSS...... (main battery selector switch.... also known as a 1-ALL/BOTH-2-OFF switch)

.
Click to expand...

My set up is the factory one (which I plan to freshen up next year); two simple on / off battery switches. One switch for port and one for stbd. The stbd battery powers the helm switches and house loads. I also have a two bank 30 amp charger and an emergency remote parallel solenoid (all factory original from 1987 and functioning properly)
 
I think you’ve hit on the answer and inspired me to just redo them all.

yes your are right. I think it would be better to relocate the jumper wire to the load terminal so that the “on” red light illuminates when the switch is activated.

Additionally, I will make a daisy chain lead that connects all the tip light positive leads to the gauge light “load” terminal on the gauge light switch so that I can illuminate the white “off” tip lights with the gauge lights.

guess I’ll be redoing all the switches afterall☹️.

I think this configuration is much better than my 3 position dual circuit switch with a switched ground idea.

Thanks for the help!
 
kimcrwbr1 said:
I agree the only thing on dash powered by the ignition switch should be the guages. All the lights and accys should be powered from the house circuit. Fused at the battery and through a master power switch to a fuse block and grounding bar. Dont add a ground to the master power switch so it is only lit when it is on?
Click to expand...

i haven’t completely unraveled how my boat is wired. It looks a bit of a mess though. From what I have gleaned it was mostly this way from the factory. It looks like the dealer or PO added a few things that aren’t to my liking

at some point if I keep this long enough I’ll likely redo it all. Some of the wires look a bit old and none of the oem terminals are sealed to the wires with shrink tubing and are starting to show some minor surface corrosion.

For now im trying to get everything fully functional and clean up the mess of disconnected wires from the engine repower job 10 years ago.

when I bought the boat last year the po had no idea what most of the switches even did . all that worked was the bilge pump, blower and wipers
 
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outobie said:
I think you’ve hit on the answer and inspired me to just redo them all.

yes your are right. I think it would be better to relocate the jumper wire to the load terminal so that the “on” red light illuminates when the switch is activated.

Additionally, I will make a daisy chain lead that connects all the tip light positive leads to the gauge light “load” terminal on the gauge light switch so that I can illuminate the white “off” tip lights with the gauge lights.

guess I’ll be redoing all the switches afterall☹️.

I think this configuration is much better than my 3 position dual circuit switch with a switched ground idea.

Thanks for the help!
Click to expand...

The switch you are using is designed to be illuminated when you turn on your running lights only. White for off and red for on.
Depending on the model boat you have, the only switch that should have diodes is for the bilge pump.
 
Got a response from the switch manufacturer that their switch should not be used to switch the ground.

“Marine electrical systems are designed the way they are to keep the positive and negative side of the system separate at all times for safety. All switching is done on the positive side of all control circuits and all grounds are routed to a common buss bar. This is per ABYC marine electrical standards and should be adhered to.”

now i I need to figure out what diode I need for my jumper wire so that activating the “white off position” light doesn’t back power on all of the accessories

can someone suggest what diodes I need and a place to purchase
 
My thought here is the ground for the switch lights is not being switched. Do you have a schematic of the switches? My guess is when you turn the switch on the lights are on separate circuit and it is actually switching the hot to the lights. In other words the amber light is closed to hot in the off position and when you turn the switch on it opes hot to the amber light and the on light just uses hot to the appliance. This is just a guess i would like to see the diagram of the switch.
 
...........................


“Marine electrical systems are designed the way they are to keep the positive and negative side of the system separate at all times for safety. All switching is done on the positive side of all control circuits and all grounds are routed to a common buss bar. This is per ABYC marine electrical standards and should be adhered to.”

They got the first part correct. :D
In a 12vdc system, there is a Positive side and a Negative side only. Yet almost industry wide, we will see the term "ground" being used. :p:(

The term "ground" typically refers to Earth Ground as used in AC current.
Click to expand...

But I digress....... are you certain that you need to use a diode?
Have you tried several different configurations re; the illumination?
 
The only diode i am aware of is for navigation/anchor lights. Wire #1 to nav lights and #3 to anchor light then put the diode between 1 and 3.
 
The switch is a simple on/off switch with two positions; on and off

it has 4 terminals

terminal 1 is the battery positive for the tip light (this is the wire I want to connect to both terminal 3 (via a diode) and also daisy chained to all terminal 1s and connected to terminal 3 of the helm light switch
terminal 2 is the switched power source connected via circuit breaker to the battery positive bus
terminal 3 is the switched load connected to the component operated by the switch
terminal 4 is the tip light ground which is daisy chained to all the top light grounds and connected to the battery ground bus
 
Sorry I’m on the road traveling and don’t have access to the part number

hopefully my description helps

found a similar one... this is the same except mine are chrome finish

[FONT=&quot]Sierra Tip Lit Toggle Switch TG40300[/FONT]
 
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What is your end goal? I found a diagram that powers all the guage lights using your anchor/navigation switch. You connect the switch light pos to the nav light circuit the load goes to the individual appliances not sure the end game for putting a diode on the load side. Is your navigation/anchor light switch a double pole double throw or a single pole double throw?
 
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Just daisy chain the switch light pos off of one of the dash light pos and just power the navigation ligh pos from the master power switch so when you turn the masterpower on the nav light is amber but all others are off then turn the nav switch on and all the guages and switch lights turn on?
 
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My objective is what’s described by ricardomarina in post #5 above;

“you may be able to power the switch's "white illumination" ONLY with the Helm light circuit. This way the white illumination will not occur until your NAV lights are turned on.
That would still allow for the switch's "red illumination" during the use of that circuit regardless of day or night use.”

in in order to wire my switches so that the red “on” light is on when the switch is activated regardless of day or night running I will jump the tip light (+) terminal to the load (on) terminal on the switch.

to activate the night time, white light with the Helm switch I will daisy chain all the tip light (+) terminals together and connect them to the Helm switch load (on) terminal.

only problem is that, with the jumper between each switchs’ tip light (+) and load (on) terminals, activating the Helm switch will backfeed through that jumper and activate all the devices unless I block the current from backfeeding with a diode
 
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outobie said:
My objective is what’s described by RicardoMarine in post #5 above;

“you may be able to power the switch's "white illumination" ONLY with the Helm light circuit. This way the white illumination will not occur until your NAV lights are turned on.
That would still allow for the switch's "red illumination" during the use of that circuit regardless of day or night use.”
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Have you tried installing and using one of these new switches yet?
Is it possible that the red illumination may occur when the switch delivers power to a device?

Just a thought!


.
 
outobie said:
My objective is what’s described by ricardomarina in post #5 above;

“you may be able to power the switch's "white illumination" ONLY with the Helm light circuit. This way the white illumination will not occur until your NAV lights are turned on.
That would still allow for the switch's "red illumination" during the use of that circuit regardless of day or night use.”

in in order to wire my switches so that the red “on” light is on when the switch is activated regardless of day or night running I will jump the tip light (+) terminal to the load (on) terminal on the switch.

to activate the night time, white light with the Helm switch I will daisy chain all the tip light (+) terminals together and connect them to the Helm switch load (on) terminal.

only problem is that, with the jumper between each switchs’ tip light (+) and load (on) terminals, activating the Helm switch will backfeed through that jumper and activate all the devices unless I block the current from backfeeding with a diode
Click to expand...

If you want a maintenance free non problematic install, you may want to follow the advice hooking up the indicator lights to the running light circuit and forget about trying to over engineer your dash wiring with diodes.

Switch in the up position equals "ON" down is "OFF" This is a full proof indicator for day time running. The indicator light is dim and only really visible after dark.
 
Looking at the switch diagram my guess is the light is just on and off depending on the input. Thinking the different colors is just the lens color is different depending on switch position kinna like fiber optic the just travels thru the toggle? Try just wiring the toggle lights directly to its own fuse in the fuse block that way they illuminat when th master power is on.
 
You can test my theory by just checking with a ohm meter between light neg and switch load if the circuit stays open it is more than likely the light is under the toggle and has different color lenses.
 
Docksidemarineservices said:
If you want a maintenance free non problematic install, you may want to follow the advice hooking up the indicator lights to the running light circuit and forget about trying to over engineer your dash wiring with diodes.

Switch in the up position equals "ON" down is "OFF" This is a full proof indicator for day time running. The indicator light is dim and only really visible after dark.
Click to expand...

Ditto! :D


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