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Boat not accelerate and vibrates crazy please help

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botaman

Regular Contributor
my 02 Larson with 4.3 V6 with Alpha1 G2 has been running very well until a few days ago, the lake was a little choppy and all of sudden it bogged down and can't even get on plane, I made it back to the dock slowly.

On the driveway with engine running I can rev the RPM up easily, but will vibrate after 1500 RPM or so and some loud clanking noise in the out-drive.

BTW, same noise and vibration either in neutral or in gear.
Please help, I really don't know where to start.

Is my u-joint all screwed up or something in the equivalent of a torque converter?

Thanks in advance folks.
 
no torque converter on an alpha setup..

did you pull the drive and check the u-joints and the gimbal bearing?
 
Ayuh,... Drain the oil from the drive, 'n look for Metal in it,...

Then pull the drive to see what's up,...
 
Pull the dip stick and see if the oil is milky

Maybe a spark plug wire fell off........maybe water got everywhere?

Does not sound like a outdrive issue if he can drive the boat....if the gears had blown he would most likely not be able to drive it in gear.......

Maybe water got in gas??
 
bondo said:
Ayuh,... If ya ain't got Maunals,... Click here, 'n follow the links to what ya need,...

NYS is a Big place,... where 'bouts ya go Boatin',..??
Click to expand...

Hey Bondo, you're da man! Thank you for the online manual.

I live in the capital area. Great sacandaga is where I usually go and occasionally Saratoga Springs.
 
kghost said:
Pull the dip stick and see if the oil is milky

Maybe a spark plug wire fell off........maybe water got everywhere?

Does not sound like a outdrive issue if he can drive the boat....if the gears had blown he would most likely not be able to drive it in gear.......

Maybe water got in gas??
Click to expand...

You know something, you're right on. I had a defective Bilge float switch that day when it all happened the water was high in the hull. I checked the oil, it's good, no milky, but I haven't check the spark plugs and wires.

I plan to replace the plugs, cap, and rotor this coming Sunday. Hope I'll find something wrong with the plug wires too.

I can't wait to get a jump on this.
 
makomark said:
no torque converter on an alpha setup..

did you pull the drive and check the u-joints and the gimbal bearing?
Click to expand...

Thanks for straighten me out, I'm really new to this boat I/O business, but not afraid to work on it though. So, where exactly the transmission on this thing?

I haven't pull the outdrive yet, plan to pull it this Sunday if plugs, cap and rotor fail.
 
botaman said:
Thanks for straighten me out, I'm really new to this boat I/O business, but not afraid to work on it though. So, where exactly the transmission on this thing?

I haven't pull the outdrive yet, plan to pull it this Sunday if plugs, cap and rotor fail.
Click to expand...

Ayuh,.... The link I posted will get ya the Factory manuals, which'll explain most everything,...

In Alpha drives, everything but the prop shaft turns with the motor,...
Shiftin' is done on the prop shaft, with dog-clutches,...
 
Update,
Yesterday I went ahead and replaced the followings.
- Plugs
- Wires
- Rotor & cap

Man did I have a hard time removing the rotor, had to use a drill to destroy it, it was stubborn in there.

Anyway, I still have the vibration at higher RPM in gear or not in gear. The vibration can be felt through the hull. I'm suspecting the Gimbal bearing or U-joint or both. Before I pull the drive, I would like get all the parts here so please help me out with what I need to do the two jobs I have mentioned.

1/ What else besides the Gimbal bearing and U-joint should I attack while I'm there?
2/ Can the U-joint be rebuilt or should I buy the whole shaft ass'y?
3/ What kind of gasket kit should I order for those two jobs?
4/ Should I stick with OEM parts or can I use aftermarket?

Thank you very much.
 
OK, I pulled the out drive. The drive shaft looks and feel solid, further checking the Gimbal bearing has some groaning when rotate with fingers. I think this is the culprit of my vibration. Time to order some parts.

Without the proper tools I know I will be in for a long day. Any tricks and wisdom out there? Here are some pics. TIA
 

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I'm sure the pros will chime in, but replaced gimble berring, shift cable and shift bellow, u joint bellows and exhaust bellows last winter.
Only " special" tools I bought were an alignment tool, ($70, eBay) and a special hex socket to remove the hinge pins. I rented a puller from advanced auto to pull the gimble berring. Abd ibthunk a specual thin walled socket to removevand install shift csble nut. And get a 3 or 4 inch diameter( take berring with you to HD) two foot long piece of PVC and a small sledge hammer to press in berring. Go slow, keep it straight, you will know when it's all the way in.
Pay close attention to placement of the bellows clamp screws.
It wasn't that hard, just follow the manual
 
kghost said:
Does not sound like a outdrive issue if he can drive the boat.... if the gears had blown he would most likely not be able to drive it in gear.......
Click to expand...
Fully agree.

bondo said:
Shiftin' is done on the prop shaft, with dog-clutches,...
Click to expand...
With exception to the propeller shaft turning or not turning, and with the boat out-of-the-water..... this is why running the engine in neutral or in gear, actually makes little difference.


The noise from the drive is certainly not good.
A bad Gimbal bearing may groan or growl, but I'm thinking that it would not create a severe vibration.... if I'm understanding your description correctly.
IOW, I'm thinking a bad gimbal bearing would almost need to be completely shot, in order to cause a severe vibration.
A groan or growl..... yes!

The large vibration would lead me to believe that you may have lost a few functioning cylinders.


It's possible that you may have two separate issues here that just happened to occur simultaneously...... yes/no????


.
 
Question,

in the picture of the entire outdrive I see the drive shaft, it has three oring grooves. The one near the splines is to keep grease in the coupler.
the two grooves near the ujoiints are there to support the shaft in the gimbal bearing. Were there orings in those grooves when you removed it?
 
If those orings are not in place the shaft could/will spin inside the bearing......

there is NO complete water tight seal in the event of a bellows failure. there is actually a weep hole/port so that water will seep/weep into the bildge area if the bellows ruptures.
 
It's possible that you may have two separate issues here that just happened to occur simultaneously...... yes/no????
Click to expand...

I agree as Kghost had mentioned it earlier. At the time, my bilge was flooded due to bad float switch, perhaps water effected plug wires.

IOW, I'm thinking a bad gimbal bearing would almost need to be completely shot, in order to cause a severe vibration.
A groan or growl..... yes!
Click to expand...

I tested on dried dock after plugs, rotor, cap and plug wires replaced. The vibration is gone as long as the outdrive angle is down. However, if I trim it up half way it will start to groan and a small vibration will be felt through the hull. I think this is a symptom of dried Gimbal bearing because the engine mounts are solid mounts.

I'm waiting for parts and can't wait to test it out. :)

In the mean time I have a couple questions for you folks.
1/ When I removed the outdrive, there was water in the shaft bellow. Should water in the shaft bellow? This kind of bother me. I'm going to replace them shaft O-rings before putting it back.
2/ How does the lower unit gear transfer work? The reason I ask is because with engine OFF and gear is in forward but I was able to spin the prop. Is that normal? Should I not able to spin the proper if gear is in forward?

Sorry with too many questions.
 
floatin radio said:
I'm sure the pros will chime in, but replaced gimble berring, shift cable and shift bellow, u joint bellows and exhaust bellows last winter.
Only " special" tools I bought were an alignment tool, ($70, eBay) and a special hex socket to remove the hinge pins. I rented a puller from advanced auto to pull the gimble berring. Abd ibthunk a specual thin walled socket to removevand install shift csble nut. And get a 3 or 4 inch diameter( take berring with you to HD) two foot long piece of PVC and a small sledge hammer to press in berring. Go slow, keep it straight, you will know when it's all the way in.
Pay close attention to placement of the bellows clamp screws.
It wasn't that hard, just follow the manual
Click to expand...

How do you know if you aligned or not with the tool? Or better yet do you a procedure how to check for alignment? I may need to do this because definitely don't want to do Gimbal bearing very month.:)
I just bought a Gimbal bearing puller from Ebay hope it works for me.
I have the thin wall socket for the shift cable swap.
Thank you for your help.
 
botaman said:
In the mean time I have a couple questions for you folks.

1/ When I removed the outdrive, there was water in the shaft bellow. Should water in the shaft bellow?

2/ How does the lower unit gear transfer work? The reason I ask is because with engine OFF and gear is in forward but I was able to spin the prop. Is that normal? Should I not able to spin the proper if gear is in forward?
Click to expand...
1.... absolutely NOT.
The entire purpose of the bellows is to keep this area dry.


2.... With an Alpha1 G2, these are Dog Clutch drives. All gear selection is done via the lower unit driven gears and sliding sleeve.
When in FWD gear, you should be able to rotate the propeller in the FWD direction, but you'll hear the dog teeth make a "ratcheting" or "clicking" sound as the teeth slip from the force that causes them to.
Likewise while in REV.



.
 
""""2/ How does the lower unit gear transfer work? The reason I ask is because with engine OFF and gear is in forward but I was able to spin the prop. Is that normal? Should I not able to spin the proper if gear is in forward?"""""

As said if you spin the prop clockwise it should click as stated.
if you rotate it counterclockwise it should engage and stop. it can be spun with great effort and it will turn the engine over. not easy but can be done.

if you can rotate it counter clockwise easily and no engine movement then you have a coupler issue and that could be the source of your noise/vibration......

answer some questions that have been asked vs asking more!!!

orings in place on shaft YES or NO?

Spin prop clockwise or counterclockwise?

You need the alignment tool long before the puller. As said you can rent the puller not the alignment tool.
Which did you purchase?
 
As said if you spin the prop clockwise it should click as stated.
if you rotate it counterclockwise it should engage and stop. it can be spun with great effort and it will turn the engine over. not easy but can be done.

if you can rotate it counter clockwise easily and no engine movement then you have a coupler issue and that could be the source of your noise/vibration......
Click to expand...

--> When I rotate clockwise I did noticed some click. But, kind of forgot i I had tried it counter-clockwise. I'm kind of afraid that I did and there was no resistance, that means my coupler is gone! Ouch! I will verify it again once I have the outdrive back in. So, can I assumed the coupler resides in the lower unit drive?

answer some questions that have been asked vs asking more!!!
Click to expand...
-->OK, I will try to do a good job with this.

orings in place on shaft YES or NO?
Click to expand...
-->Yes

Spin prop clockwise or counterclockwise?
Click to expand...
-->Clockwise and heard clicking. Don't remember had I try counter-clockwise.

You need the alignment tool long before the puller. As said you can rent the puller not the alignment tool.
Which did you purchase?
Click to expand...
--> I bought the puller. So, are you saying I need to verify my alignment?

Thanks again for your help.
 
kghost said:
  1. if you rotate it counterclockwise it should engage and stop.

  2. it can be spun with great effort and it will turn the engine over. not easy but can be done.

  3. if you can rotate it counter clockwise easily and no engine movement then you have a coupler issue and that could be the source of your noise/vibration......
Click to expand...
Kghost.... no offense, but a little clarification if I may.

  1. Agreed, if while in FWD gear.

  2. With the reduction ratio against our favor, I can't imagine that one could turn the engine over via the propeller.
    Maybe this is my day to learn something new! :D

  3. Is this to suggest turning the propeller CCW while in FWD gear, and doing this would spin the main drive shaft within a bad drive coupler?
    Again, I can't imagine that one could over-come the friction here..... even with a bad coupler.


 
botaman said:
How do you know if you aligned or not with the tool? Or better yet do you a procedure how to check for alignment? I may need to do this because definitely don't want to do Gimbal bearing very month.:)
I just bought a Gimbal bearing puller from Ebay hope it works for me.
I have the thin wall socket for the shift cable swap.
Thank you for your help.
Click to expand...

Never mind, just watch some alignment on You-tube. Very simple enough.
 
Yes, one can turn an engine over by turning the prop c'clockwise..........

I said it was not easy but can and has been done......especially a worn 4 cylinder motor but a v6 and v8 have been spun.

I am not talking any more than a partial revolution.......not round and round............that would be a struggle.............

And yes I have done it!

The alignment is easy enough and if already in alignment it is no more than an assurance. If not then it will need to be adjusted. Also when installing a gimbal bearing it is typically not aligned as the bearing itself has a spherical outer race and will rotate slighty out of where it needs to be.

One other issue is a bearing instalation tool...............that is another tool.........NO CONTACT WITH INNER RACE! only contact should be on the aluminium outer carrier to "press/beat" it back into location and it does take some effort to do it that way. one other way is to use a threaaded rod/plate to drive it into its location.

I have done hundreds and then some...........I had a bearing driver made ($250.00) just for this bearing..........tight tolorances for a flawless install.

Also you mentioned replacing your shift cable??? Why? if it is not broken dont fix it.........just sayin.........
 
I am not talking any more than a partial revolution.......not round and round............that would be a struggle.............
Click to expand...
So kghost, a propeller "push start" is out of the question? :D

One of my brothers used to joke about finding a long log, and push starting his chain saw when the pull cord broke on him.


.
 
Last edited:
Ummmmmmmm Yes............never get past .125 (1/8) revolution maybe 1/4 but that is about it.......................lol need a really good ignition to kick off on that...........

Never said it was easy but we dont know the size or strentgh of this guy..........when i worked in the business after a while one developes a lot of added strentgh when doing 6 - 7 days a week for 10 months a year........I always seemed to be assigned the heavy work like this kind of job.

I used to save all the bellows hose clamps from doing bellows, water hoses and shift bellows/cable replacement. Been out of the business full time since '96 (part ime till '06) and still have not depleted my supply of hose clamps and believe me I use them for all kinds of things..........

Also when using the standard slide hammer puller to get the bearing out did not seem to be doing the job as easily as i thought it should I made a 10 - 15 lb slide.........now no matter what the bearing condition it comes out in two slides.........not tens or more......

Smarter not harder........
 
The alignment is easy enough and if already in alignment it is no more than an assurance. If not then it will need to be adjusted. Also when installing a gimbal bearing it is typically not aligned as the bearing itself has a spherical outer race and will rotate slightly out of where it needs to be.
Click to expand...

Thanks Kghost, I just bought the alignment tool.

One other issue is a bearing installation tool...............that is another tool.........NO CONTACT WITH INNER RACE! only contact should be on the aluminium outer carrier to "press/beat" it back into location and it does take some effort to do it that way. one other way is to use a threaded rod/plate to drive it into its location.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the heads up. I will be as careful as I can.

I have done hundreds and then some...........I had a bearing driver made ($250.00) just for this bearing..........tight tolerances for a flawless install.
Click to expand...

I'll be the judge if you can send it over. :) Nice!

Also you mentioned replacing your shift cable??? Why? if it is not broken dont fix it.........just saying.........
Click to expand...

Well, it had a rip then I super glued it a few years ago and still holding on. Now I have a somewhat better chance so I'm thinking replacing the bellow only not the cable.
 
Just got the Gimbal bearing removal tool, and less than 5 minutes the tool snapped in half. Gotta love it. $$%(SSSSS$$$$$&%#))))jWTF!!!!:mad:

Ghost I really could use yours now sir...:D
 
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