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bf130 woes

T

tiderunner79

New member
Hey all,
I think I have read every post on this forum regarding the Honda bf130 and have not seemed to solve my problem. I am however very impressed with the amount of knowledge you all have.
I recently purchased a boat with a 2004 bf130 on it. The motor only has 230 hrs on it. It starts right up, idles great, revs real nice until it Is put under load. When I take it out on the water It wil run at about 5500 RPMs for a few minutes, and then slowly start to surge, I can then back off the throttle to about 5200 for a couple minutes and It begin to surge again, back off to about 4700 and it will run longer but will eventually start the surging again. At about 4500 it will run a long time, but eventually the same. I've ran it on a portable tank and get the same results. I have changed all filters, HP pump was recently replaced, changed out spark plugs and as a note the old ones looked great. I noticed that the engine was peeing as soon as it was started, so I replaced the t-stat. The old one was pretty gummed up. It still pees instantly on startup with great force I might add, depending on RPMs. This does not seem normal to me as all other outboards I have had, including my current kicker, it takes a little while before they will start peeing. Could this be my problem? When it is surging It really feels like It is starving for fuel, but all seems to be well there. I can pump the brand new Johnson primer bulb and it has zero effect on what is happening. If I turn off the motor and cycle the key a few times it is better for a minute or two but quickly starts the surging again.
Thanks for reading the long post, and I look forward to hearing some of your wisdom.
Very frustrated and just want to go salmon fishing.

Thanks, Marc T.
 
I think all of the larger Hondas start "peeing" as soon as the engine starts. It has nothing to do with the t-stats.

Reading the post, the very first thing that occurred to me is that you may have a "spun" prop. That is, the rubber bushing between the prop hub and the spindle has broken loose, but still has enough pressure to turn the prop until you get to higher speeds. Pull your prop and closely inspect the edges of the rubber bushing. If you see that it's raised around the edges of the hub, or the edges of the spindle, then that is likely the problem. Get another prop or have that one repaired by a good prop shop.
 
Thanks CHawk for the reply. I really would not have thought to look beyond the power head in regards to this issue. When I get time I will pull off the prop and take a look. It still seems odd to me though that I can stop the engine and cycle the key a couple times and the problem goes away but only for a few seconds. I would also add that after running for a while and reaching my destination, if I idle around for more than a minute or two to set crab pots or whatever, I will not have enough power to get back on plane. I can push the throttle forward and it just struggles like it is not getting enough fuel. I then have to shut it off, cycle the key a few times and I can typically at least get on a plane again and slowly reach my next destination.
Thanks again for the reply and I will let you know what I find.
Marc
 
Since I am no mechanic, I am wondering what the symptoms would be if the thermostat were stuck open and the motor was running cold? Anything besides fouled plugs? Mine looked fine when I replaced them. I do seem to be burning more fuel than most people claim their 130 ' s burn. I would guess that I am around 6-7 gph, and obviously I am nowhere near WOT.
 
When you said: "then slowly start to surge, I can then back off the throttle to about 5200 for a couple minutes and It begin to surge again, back off to about 4700 and it will run longer but will eventually start the surging again. At about 4500 it will run a long time, but eventually the same. " That's what made me think you might have a spun prop.

When you turn off then engine and recycle the key a few times, the prop hub may be cooling down just enough to allow the rubber bushing to re-engage. Just an idea.

A stuck open t-stat would cause a cool, rich burn, but I don't think the surging would be caused by that.
 
I can tell that you have read a lot of posts, by what you have done.

Has the motor ever run good for you?

If the prop checks out....it would be nice if you or one of your friends had a fuel pressure gauge to watch the high pressure fuel as it is acting up. If it reads steady around 40 psi, then at least you know for sure that the high pressure fuel pump and fuel pressure regulator are doing well.

Have you checked compression?

Those two things should be checked first....just like when you go to the doctor, he/she checks you blood pressure, heart rate, etc.

Is the surging slow or is it quick (but going into the surge is slow)? Have you actually checked the temperature at the thermostat? Could it be overheating and going into safe mode? Yes, it can overheat even if it is peeing good.

Pull the thermostat and leave the cap off. Start the engine in the water and see if water shoots out of the thermostat housing. If it just dribbles, you have a waterflow problem. Time to check the impeller and backflush the engine while lower unit is off. If it shoots out, then from the impeller to the thermostat is probably good.

Next to check is all of the vents. Make sure the hose from the crankcase to the intake is clear. Make sure the vent to the vapor separator is clear (it is the hose with a filter in it that goes straight up from the vapor separator.

Check the PVC valve. It is located on the top of the engine on the starboard side about 1/2 way back the engine.

Did you have the high pressure pump changed or was it done before you? Do you know if the vapor separator was cleaned and the screen below the high pressure pump replaced? Once again...if the fuel pressure can be measured, the fuel system up to the injectors can be taken out of the mix.

So, I know I was kind of disjointed but...

You need to be sure you have good compression, good fuel pressure, good temperature, and good venting.

Mike
 
Hey Mike,
First off, thanks for the reply, and wow, I'm gonna need more time in my life to work on this thing I'm afraid. To answer your questions; no it has never run good for me, I called the guy that I bought it from after my first time out and he offered to replace the hp pump for me. He had similar issues before selling it to me and replaced the pump which he claimed solved the problem.
After he replaced the pump for me, it ran as it does now ( which is a lot better than it did before pump replacement). Before we replaced it, it ran good for about 4 minutes and started surging worse than it does now. I was never even able to get back on plane that time out. The vst was not cleaned or the screen replaced when he changed the pump. The surge is quick, you can watch the rpms dip ever so slightly at first, hardly able to feel it, then progressively get more severe at approximately 2 to 3 second intervals until it just runs like crap unless I back off the throttle a few hundred rpms, and the cycle repeats. The compression was checked 1.5 to 2 years ago, approximately 30 hrs on the motor. The readings at the time were; 180, 175, 190, 190. Not great, but could be worse right. :) I have never had a temperature warning, but have not checked the temp at the stat either. Would it go into safe mode even if no temp warning? Could I use the flush boot to check the water pressure with the tstat removed or will the hose pressure mess that up. My hose is about a half hour closer than the ocean. :) I did check the vent hose on the vst and it was clear. What exactly am I looking for when I check the pcv valve? I'll check my seloc manual, that should tell me? I hope this answers some of your questions and I will work on finding someone to help me test fuel pressure. I really appreciate your time guys, it's nice to know that complete strangers will take the time to help a guy out. I'll let you know what I find.
Marc
 
It could go into safe mode without an alarm, but it usually does not.

You could try running it without the thermostat cover on the hose. The water pressure could mess up the test some, but it is worth a shot. Have someone watch the water spray coming out of the ears as you start the motor. If the spray decreases and it looks like the water is being drawn into the motor, then that is a pretty good indication that the water pump is working. How well....you will see if the water comes pouring out of the thermostat housing.

As for the PCV valve, it is just like a check valve. You should be able to blow through it one what but not the other. I doubt the Seloc even acknowledges that there is one there. Those manuals do not always have very accurate information.

If you can not come up with a fuel pressure gauge (the pressure is measured on the right end of the vapor separator....there is a screw in the center of the cap where you changed the high pressure filter. Take the screw out and insert fuel pressure gauge)....then I would take the vst off and remove the cover and inspect the inside of the bowl and of the high pressure pump area. That will tell you a lot.

Mike
 
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Thanks Mike,

You're right, I can't find anything in the seloc manual about the pcv valve. I'll let you know what I come up with when I get some of these things done.
Marc T.
 
You might consider running it in a trash can full of water instead of the hose. Much less messy and more info gleaned IMO.
 
Tiderunner - just a quick clarification - when you say the motor is surging, do you mean it is increasing RPMs, or decreasing RPM's? My response about the prop issue assumed increasing RPM's (which is what "surging" typically describes) but in your post to Mike you seem to indicate that the RPM's were dropping off. If the latter, it is unlikely you need to worry about the prop.
 
Sorry about that CHawk. I misled you by saying that the motor was surging, which in hindsight would mean increasing rpm's. Sorry. What would you call the opposite of surging? :) The Rpms are actually dropping when the problem occurs, very slightly at first and gets progressively longer lasting and more pronounced the longer I let it go before backing off on the throttle.
Hope this makes more sense.
Thanks CHawk,

Marc
 
Hey Guys,
I got a chance to tear into my motor a couple weeks back, and started to check out the things you guys said could be a problem. I first checked all of the vent lines that you mentioned Mike and they were all clear. The Pcv valve also functioned the way that you said it should. Then, because I did not have a gauge to check the pressure of the hp pump, I decided to tear into the vst and check it out. After I got it off the motor, I went to take the top off, after attempting to loosen a couple of the screws I realized that was not happening. I could tell by tipping it upside down that the float inside was not sticking as I could hear it moving. So I removed the pump housing from the vst and then removed the hp pump. I then saw the screen/ filter that you were talking about mike at the bottom of the pump insulator. I shined a flashlight into the lower hole in the housing and realized that I could see very little light coming through the screen. I pulled the insulator out of the housing, it was all I could do to get it out of there, who would have thought an o-ring could stick so hard, and found that the screen was almost completely covered over with some sort of build up. I ordered a new insulator and all o rings to put it back together. Since I was not able to get the top of the vst off, I flushed it out as best I could with gas. I got a little bit of junk out but not too bad. Hopefully that is good enough or I will have to buy a new one since those screws are not going anywhere. Parts finally came a couple days ago. I put it back together, made sure it ran, and today I headed out fishing. It ran awesome! I was one happy guy, even caught a couple of coho. Thanks so much for your help guys, I never would have known that there was even a screen down there. Hopefully this is the end of my problems for a long time.

Thanks again,

Marc T.
 
Congratulations!
But if you want your wish of ...."the end of my problems for a long time"....to come true...
...better start working on getting those screws loose so that you can remove the top of the VST for REGULAR cleaning.
You've just proven that it needs to done.

It's either that or wait until the next time it starts crapping out on a fishing trip.

Every DIY boat owner needs to look into a tool called an IMPACT DRIVER. Own one and know how to use it and things get a bit more "doable". Along with a "rotary tool" like a DREMEL, this is a GREAT addition to your arsenal for keeping the Honda UP.

On those I would drain the fuel...apply a penetrant like PB BLASTER and then use a high wattage soldering iron held firmly against the screw head to heat each one as much as possible. Then, let them cool. Repeat this process...Blaster-heat-cool...at least three times. This is called "thermocycling the joint" and allows the two dissimilar metals to "De-bond". The heating and cooling also assists the penetrant in "wicking" it's way into the joint.

The more patience you have and the more you can do it allows you to get the most effect from the process. I once spent 3 weeks waiting for an axle shaft on a riding lawn mower to "loosen up". If I had gotten impatient, I would have broken something. But, it came out.

When you decide to "give it a try" is when you get to use your brand new IMPACT DRIVER for the very first time. Select the best fitting tip and a decent hammer and "get after it". So what if you booger up the screw head? Get out the DREMEL tool with a cut-off wheel and make a new "SLOT" in the head to keep on trying with a different driver tip. If the head gets to be scrap...The DREMEL is right there to go ahead and grind the heads flat and remove the cover. You can then grab the stub of the screw with VICE GRIPS and turn what's left out of the hole. Then it's off to the hardware store for more screws and a can of ANTI-SEIZE paste.

This is a good project for the "off season" to make sure you are in good shape for the "next season" of fishing.

Happy boating.....

...for now ]:~)
 
Thanks Jgmo, I will give that a shot. I've got the makita impact driver and the dremel. I assume the pb blaster is something you can get at an auto parts store. I would like to get that cleaned out, I'm gonna be really annoyed when it happens again. That will be a project for november after the salmon are done running. Hopefully I am OK til then.

Thanks again

Marc T.
 
Jimmy - I learn something new from you every time you give one of those dissertations. Never heard of the soldering iron trick before. Makes immanent sense.
 
Thank you chawk_man! I'm pretty sure I stole it from someone else but it IS a neat trick in situations like this. I have found that if it only works on one or two screws out of a set, it still makes sense to at least try it before just grinding the heads off. But grind the heads off I WILL if need be!

tiderunner79...I wasn't really referring to a power tool like the Makita hammer dirll....but...I suppose it might work for sure!
Instead, I was talking about a non powered, hand held tool that you simultaneously turn with one hand and strike with a hammer using your other hand. I learned to use one early in life working on motorcycles. Unlike the Makita, which is pretty powerful and can jump and twist out of control at times, the hand held IMPACT DRIVER provides you with infinite control over the process.

Harbor Freight sells inexpensive ones but I would urge you to avoid those as they are not of good quality and are much less effective than the higher quality tool that you can often find at your local hardware store. The Harbor Freight model LOOKS good but it has a soft, mushy grip coating that may feel comfortable but also interferes with the tool's "action". I prefer a solid steel grip with a VERY stiff internal spring action. Those will also include superior quality Phillips head and slot head tips of varying sizes that won't snap off on the first try as the ones that come with the cheaper models do.

You can check them out when you are buying your first can of PB Blaster...sold at MOST hardware and automotive stores....AND...something NO boater should be without!

Good luck Skipper!
 
What? No motor or battery? I'm gonna have to talk to my Grandpa to learn more about these "hand tools.";) Just kidding, I have seen them but never used one, I'll see what I can find as there seems to be a lot of places in my life where the Makita or more so the bits just don't cut it.
Thanks for the tip jgmo.

Marc T.
 
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