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BF130 water in oil and questionable compression

Z-man

New member
Hey all,
Bought a used bf130 at a too good to be true price. Milkshake oil but not super high on dipstick. Dumped the oil and bought the cheapest I could find to replace it as I was unsure if it was an issue or condensation. Motor fired up nicely with the new oil. No smoke or sputter, was feeling ok. Ran for about 30 seconds, pulled dipstick and can see water is getting in. Started looking at this forum and saw everyone’s awesome responses. Started digging in a bit to see if it’s head, head gasket, etc. Did a compression test and all 4 seem way low compared to what I am reading.
1-125
2-130
3-115
4-140
#3 plug was covered in oil and water droplets.
Still going to continue tearing it down but was hoping for some feedback on the overall low compression.
 
I just rebuilt my head on my bf150. I had milk oil as well from a rotted water jacket in the head. My compression was lower than normal when I checked but I didn’t have the throttle open all the way so that could have been the reason. I found a complete head with crankshafts, rocker arms and valves for $2700. The head alone for mine is $1300. I got it back together this past weekend and preliminary have it running good. I am going to post in the topic I started a while back one it’s complete and running to update everyone in case it happens to someone else. I had water on my spark plug #4 it was washed for sure.
 
Well, as Mark said, it's looking like you may be on the way to pulling the head where you're likely to see the problems. But you might want to consider doing a cylinder leak down test first to find where the compression is being lost because you can't "go back" and do that and get any useful information.
My guess is that she's got more than one problem. If it's a corroded head AND loss of pressure via cylinder sealing (rings), then some careful measurements will need to be made before deciding if you're going to reuse the block.

Good luck.
 
Here is some more info on the BF130 cyl head, & water in oil problem
and here

Bob
 
Thanks
Well, as Mark said, it's looking like you may be on the way to pulling the head where you're likely to see the problems. But you might want to consider doing a cylinder leak down test first to find where the compression is being lost because you can't "go back" and do that and get any useful information.
My guess is that she's got more than one problem. If it's a corroded head AND loss of pressure via cylinder sealing (rings), then some careful measurements will need to be made before deciding if you're going to reuse the block.

Good luck.
Well Shoot!!
A cracked head!😭
Block looks ok as far as I’ve can see.
Did the leak down as you suggested and was pretty sure I was going to find a cracked head as I heard air coming out of cool side and exhaust side.
Can’t seem to attach pictures. Too large.
Haven’t started surfing for a replacement yet.
Any suggestions?
 
Here is some more info on the BF130 cyl head, & water in oil problem
and here

Bob
Thanks for the links Bob
 
Bob, I took your advise and brought in a head from Impex. Parts came in within 2 weeks and over the past weekend swapped all related components. Thanks again for the link to that site.

Now... why did this head crack in the first place?

Dumped the oil again, and fired it up. Was quite pleased with how it fired up but wasn't getting much in the way of cooling water to the pee line.
I pulled the gearcase assembly, looking at the water pump. Played with this a bit, but didn't see any real wear etc. After trying it off and on a couple times, I decided to pull it and hook a garden hose right to the connection in the leg to determine if it was related to water pump or if there is a restriction. I am getting only minimal water, if any, from the pee line, most out of the bottom of the leg. I haven't been able to track down a schematic of the water passages per say.
When I had the engine apart, there was no real signs of corrosion as this motor has mostly been run in fresh water. I did replace all the anodes, and blow air through all passages. I feel like this may be a restriction somewhere, but aside from compressed air how does one determine where it would be? Anything I am missing?
Does the thermostat have to open before I see it circulate through to the Pee line? I am hesitant to get this motor too hot until I know my cooling system is working as it should.

Also one more quick question. The new thermostat I purchased opens at 60c vs 72c. Yet I believe I read somewhere that 72c is for cold water operation. is this correct? I am in Southern British Columbia so will be in cold fresh water lakes.

Zach
 
I don't know about the 130 but I've seen several instances where the top of the water tube...item 8 in the link below...
missed getting inserted properly in the upper grommet after the gearcase was installed.


I dont know for sure but believe that item 8 in the link below is the upper grommet that the tube is supposed to go in. If the tube isn't in there correctly or that grommet is deformed/damaged in some way (think "squished"), then it could really cause a big leak before water enters the engine block.



Just a thought.
 
I don't know about the 130 but I've seen several instances where the top of the water tube...item 8 in the link below...
missed getting inserted properly in the upper grommet after the gearcase was installed.


I dont know for sure but believe that item 8 in the link below is the upper grommet that the tube is supposed to go in. If the tube isn't in there correctly or that grommet is deformed/damaged in some way (think "squished"), then it could really cause a big leak before water enters the engine block.



Just a thought.
That’s a good place to start.
Thanks
I don't know about the 130 but I've seen several instances where the top of the water tube...item 8 in the link below...
missed getting inserted properly in the upper grommet after the gearcase was installed.


I dont know for sure but believe that item 8 in the link below is the upper grommet that the tube is supposed to go in. If the tube isn't in there correctly or that grommet is deformed/damaged in some way (think "squished"), then it could really cause a big leak before water enters the engine block.



Just a thought.
Pulled the lower gear case this afternoon as well as extension cover. #8 and associated grommets appear to be ok. Hooked hose to this pipe and again only getting slight flow out of pee line.
pulled all lines off and blew compressed air into them. No blockages I can identify but all air sounds like it’s conical out the exhaust. As is most of the water. Took some short videos. Hoping to be able to upload.
If I block the exhaust and the inlet holes while hooked to garden hose I get a bit more output but not like anything I’ve seen online.
Decided to try running it without much change. By the time I filled a 5gallon pail I had a high temp alarm.
What am I missing??

I did run this with the leg off and hooked directly to garden hose. I thought perhaps lack of back pressure was causing more flow out exhaust but was very similar to when I last ran it fully assembled.
 

Not sure if this will work🤞🤞
 
Yes,
I was about to ask you....
On the parts page for the oil pan, (link below) it references four hoses in dotted lines and directs you to the VST page (E18)


Go to the VST page though and there's no "reciprocal" back to the oil pan page which is unusual. They almost always direct you back in those cases.

Then, looking at the mount case page (F09) it shows 3 barbed nipples and, again, directs you to page (E18) where there is no reciprocal for that page either.


Are those coolant lines for the fuel system? Is it possible you accidentally got them hooked up wrong so that the flow is fighting itself. I don't know a thing about the 130 but I'm interested in seeing you get this sorted out.
 
Ok, my mistake...there was another E18 page....link below.
It's labeled fuel-pipe so I guess all the lines are for gas. But at least you can see the reciprocal pointing back to the page that directs you there.


I used to work out of genuine Honda parts manuals and those two E18 pages would have been right next to each other in the book. Not the case with boats.net.

I know you're already scratching your head with the problem and I apologize if I just added to the confusion.
 
Did you have the thermostat removed when doing all these tests and flushes? And run in a barrel? I also flushed with the hose through the thermostat housing with the pee hose disconnected from the pee grommet.

I had to flush my 130 with vinegar, used four or so 4 liter jugs in a barrel of water. I removed the pee nipple and ran a small hose from it back into the barrel. I monitored temperatures with an IR gun for barrel water temperature plus for the block.

My engine is run in salt water and was before I bought the boat. I got small bits of salt crud out of the pee tube and ran the flush for several hours, the barrel water got up to about 160 and the pee water the same. The overheat alarm seems very sensitive, sometimes if I run a long time at low rpm in Mahone Bay, it will alarm. I just restart it and run at a higher rpm while monitoring the per water temperature with my hand. Sometimes I got a small lump of crud/salt plugging the pee hole, this happened for a while after doing the vinegar flush but then went away. I drilled the pee hole grommet a bit larger too.

Not sure what thermostat I have, just bought one from the dealer for the 130. Our water is about 10c in June but goes up to 20c in the heat of summer.
 
Ok, my mistake...there was another E18 page....link below.
It's labeled fuel-pipe so I guess all the lines are for gas. But at least you can see the reciprocal pointing back to the page that directs you there.


I used to work out of genuine Honda parts manuals and those two E18 pages would have been right next to each other in the book. Not the case with boats.net.

I know you're already scratching your head with the problem and I apologize if I just added to the confusion.
Thanks for this,
I will look closer at the routing this evening. Perhaps you are onto something here.
 
Did you have the thermostat removed when doing all these tests and flushes? And run in a barrel? I also flushed with the hose through the thermostat housing with the pee hose disconnected from the pee grommet.

I had to flush my 130 with vinegar, used four or so 4 liter jugs in a barrel of water. I removed the pee nipple and ran a small hose from it back into the barrel. I monitored temperatures with an IR gun for barrel water temperature plus for the block.

My engine is run in salt water and was before I bought the boat. I got small bits of salt crud out of the pee tube and ran the flush for several hours, the barrel water got up to about 160 and the pee water the same. The overheat alarm seems very sensitive, sometimes if I run a long time at low rpm in Mahone Bay, it will alarm. I just restart it and run at a higher rpm while monitoring the per water temperature with my hand. Sometimes I got a small lump of crud/salt plugging the pee hole, this happened for a while after doing the vinegar flush but then went away. I drilled the pee hole grommet a bit larger too.

Not sure what thermostat I have, just bought one from the dealer for the 130. Our water is about 10c in June but goes up to 20c in the heat of summer.
I did not have the thermostat removed for this test.
 
Is there any kind of schematic or description of how this cooling circuit is supposed to function?
Assuming in through the tube into block. Must be a divider of sorts in there. Block cooling on one side, fills water jacket on other waiting for thermostat to open.
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through thermostat into head

heated water comes out of bottom corner of head, which cools the vapor separator and out the telltale?
Is this kind of the gist?
Does the block water exit out the exhaust, or is that split too? There are 2 ports on the starboard side that I am not 100% on. One may be vacuum if I read this parts diagram correctly located under intake manifold, the other comes out of the block in behind the vapor separator and divides into it. The then merge into the tell tale?

Last evening I inspected all the cooling lines for routing and blockages. Feel confident in the routing. I took one of the hoses and individually blew on each port to see if I could feel any restriction coming from one more than another.
The most restriction came from the Port side at the bottom of the head, but I believe I am blowing it against what the flow should be. This was the only port that I could hear air coming through the head. Every other port I blew on sounded like it went to exhaust.
I hope this makes sense.

Just want to say thanks to everyone in advance!
This is a great tool and your input is really encouraging
 
Re lack of water flow, have you checked the relief valve #1 ? https://www.boats.net/catalog/honda...a-vin-bzbe-1400001-to-bzbe-1499999/thermostat
Maybe it has jammed open?

Bob
I did check this and it seems ok. I did purchase a new one with my rebuild parts and the new one was definitely larger. I could not use it as it wouldn’t fit the housing.
If jammed open the water would come out the flush hose I presume?

I was referring to the water relief valve, not the flush valve.

Bob
 
I did check this and it seems ok. I did purchase a new one with my rebuild parts and the new one was definitely larger. I could not use it as it wouldn’t fit the housing.
If jammed open the water would come out the flush hose I presume?

I was referring to the water relief valve, not the flush valve.

Bob
You were right!
It wasn’t even there when I pulled it to swap the head. I even cleaned the holder for the spring without noticing it was supposed to be there.
Nice find
 
I did check this and it seems ok. I did purchase a new one with my rebuild parts and the new one was definitely larger. I could not use it as it wouldn’t fit the housing.
If jammed open the water would come out the flush hose I presume?

I was referring to the water relief valve, not the flush valve.

Bob
Finally received my parts from boats.net.
Installed new impeller kit, missing relief valve and spring.
Absolutely no change! Ran it up until the overheat sensor alarmed. Getting mild warm water out of the tell tale but still just a trickle.
I am at a loss!!
Any ideas?
 
I know that it's driving you crazy, it would me too! But I think that your focus on the tell tale is misguided. It's just a bypass, used for information only, and shouldn't cause overheat even if completely blocked. The "mildly warm" water coming from it is proof of that. I bet if you hold your hand in that same stream and then shut the engine off it will burn you as the water in the block drains back out. If that passage was used for any cooling purposes, the water would be scalding hot all the time except at cold start up.

If you haven't tried removing the tell tale fitting from the block and running it that way, do so. That might blow out whatever is plugging that passage. But, even if that works, I wager it won't help with the cooling issue at all.

Good luck.
 
You said you fitted a new cyl head, which should be the superseded part #12201 ZW5 020ZA.
You must also use the superseded head gasket part #12251 ZW5 023 to match that cyl head.
But I see that Impex still sell the earlier head gasket #12251 ZW5 013, which won't suit the new head.
Hopefully you fitted the correct head gasket?

Bob
 
I know that it's driving you crazy, it would me too! But I think that your focus on the tell tale is misguided. It's just a bypass, used for information only, and shouldn't cause overheat even if completely blocked. The "mildly warm" water coming from it is proof of that. I bet if you hold your hand in that same stream and then shut the engine off it will burn you as the water in the block drains back out. If that passage was used for any cooling purposes, the water would be scalding hot all the time except at cold start up.

If you haven't tried removing the tell tale fitting from the block and running it that way, do so. That might blow out whatever is plugging that passage. But, even if that works, I wager it won't help with the cooling issue at all.

Good luck.
You said you fitted a new cyl head, which should be the superseded part #12201 ZW5 020ZA.
You must also use the superseded head gasket part #12251 ZW5 023 to match that cyl head.
But I see that Impex still sell the earlier head gasket #12251 ZW5 013, which won't suit the new head.
Hopefully you fitted the correct head gasket?

Bob
You had me worried Bob, but I remembered that I ordered my gaskets from Boats.net. I did go back to verify, and thankfully I did install 12251-ZW5-023
 
I know that it's driving you crazy, it would me too! But I think that your focus on the tell tale is misguided. It's just a bypass, used for information only, and shouldn't cause overheat even if completely blocked. The "mildly warm" water coming from it is proof of that. I bet if you hold your hand in that same stream and then shut the engine off it will burn you as the water in the block drains back out. If that passage was used for any cooling purposes, the water would be scalding hot all the time except at cold start up.

If you haven't tried removing the tell tale fitting from the block and running it that way, do so. That might blow out whatever is plugging that passage. But, even if that works, I wager it won't help with the cooling issue at all.

Good luck.
Back to the cooling circuit.
Where does it come out of the block? Is it under the port side/exhaust side of the head?
I pulled my vapour separator, as well as the Oil jacket cover.

Without fully understanding the cooling circuit I am simply trying to piece it together.

JGMO can you expand more on your earlier comment?
But, even if that works, I wager it won't help with the cooling issue at all.
Any other thoughts?

I feel as though the guy I bought this from was struggling to troubleshoot this as well, because as I said when Bob asked about relief valve, there wasn't even one in there when I tore it all down.
 
After going back and re-reading this thread I think that this used engine you bought probably had a pump impeller (or two) go to pieces and now there are chunks stuck inside the block. That's the bad news.
The good news is, based on what you're seeing with the poor flowing tell tale, is that the worst of the blockage may be right there near where the tell tale bypass splits off from the main cooling. That is going to be very near where the water tube and grommet are. So, it's very likely that, if you remove the tube and possibly the grommet too, you may be able to get to it and fish whatever is in there out if it won't "backflush" out.

This is what I would try if it were me....As NSDON recommends, remove the Tstats, remove the water tube and try flushing the system backwards. As you put water into a passage, devise a way to concentrate the flow as much as possible. I have used wash cloths and shop towels to form a seal before but whatever works.

Take note of water coming out anywhere other than the water tube passage and block that off with rags or, again,.whatever. The idea is to concentrate as much power as possible to the water tube entry point. You may need to have a helper that's willing to get wet for you.

Then, change it up. Wherever there was flow that you needed to block will now become the place to insert and seal the hose and you will now want to block the original flush point to gain maximum flow.

If at all possible, remove the water tube grommet but I realize that it's probably not easy.

Fish around up in there with a long pick or a very stiff wire with a small hook bent into it and see if you can snag something and pull it out.

If you can get something to dislodge and fall out of that area I believe that will solve your overheating.

If you get anything to come out don't stop! Keep backflushing to try and get more.

Use your imagination and ingenuity to improve on my "techniques" and I'm looking forward to hearing that you....

.... kicked it's A$$!!!
 
To expand on the tell tale passage....
Pretty much all outboards having a tell tale will have that separate passage or "bypass" located very near where water enters the engine directly from the water pump. The tell tale passage is not used for heat exchange. It's simply a small "branch" circuit to deliver enough flow to inform the operator that the pump is working.
That's it. It has nothing to do with cooling the engine.

Good luck
 
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