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2010 Honda BF225 Siezed Up

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sourcecal

New member
Hi all. This forum has been a great resource and now I have something very interesting to add. My port engine completely siezed up while operating it around 3500 rpm. It has been very well maintained and I had just completed the 200 hour service. There were no alarms and the engine had never gone into "limp" mode. And, no other previous performance indications that this catostrophic failure was immenent. The boat/engines had never been in salt water until this day out of SF bay when the failure occured so the cooling was like new condition.

Here is what the certified mechanic has found:
1) No DTC codes but the print out only indicated that the engine had experienced 5 previous oil pressure alerts.
2) The thrust bearing had failed as measured by the lift check indicating 0.030" lift. 0.014" is maximum allowable
3) Engine siezed due to the #2 cylinder exhaust valve and an intake valve both having their respective stems break. see pics... I am having trouble with the upload on pics so I don't know if they showed up. (Note: the intake valve is actually turned upside down and stuck in the valve seat.)

The good news is that Honda is honoring the warranty and I am getting a new head and short block. In addition, the lift check on the thrust bearing for the starboard engine is also beyond spec with 15 previous oil pressure alerts, therefore, Honda is also short blocking that engine.

My speculation on why the valve stems broke on the port engine is the thrust bearing failure caused a restriction of oil flow to the #2 cylinder valve stems and they stuck open.

I would be interested in any and all input from this forum, especially, if someone else had correctly diagnosed this failure. In addition, what other concerns should I have. For example, I have already asked the shop to check all valve stem clearances, cam bearing conditions, etc., since both engines have experienced a failure of the thrust bearing.

View attachment No. 2 Cyl.pdf View attachment No. 2 Cyl head.pdf


 
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The link to the picture worked. That is seriously ugly! Your theory that: "valve stems broke on the port engine is the thrust bearing failure caused a restriction of oil flow to the #2 cylinder valve stems and they stuck open." is as good as any. But that begs the question of why a thrust bearing failure? That seems very odd for that new of an engine with that number of hours. Hopefully others will kick in on this thread. Very interesting issue.

Glad that Honda is making good on it. I suspect the regional rep will get involved with this one, and he/she should. Press them on the cause.

BTW, at about 240 hours on my 2007 BF 225, the Honda service dealer found metal filings in my oil. Honda ponied up for a new block. When I asked for an explanation, I was told that Honda engine manufacturing is so automated, that occasionally the blocks and initial hardware is not cleaned thoroughly, leaving filings and other debris in the block. I thought that was a bit far fetched, but maybe not.
 
Hi sourcecal,

I'm curious. Could you explain your reasoning for thinking the thrust bearing failure caused lube starvation to the #2 valve stems and ONLY those valves? Were the stems in fact seized in the guides? Or, was there evidence of poor lubrication on some of the other valves?

We have seen at least one other post of 225 valve stems being "necked down" and, ultimately, being struck by the piston.

A couple of major differences between that case and yours was that there was quite a bit of corrosion associated with that failure along with the engine being operated almost exclusively in salt water.

I believe that poster had concluded that the excessive clearance between valve stem and guide had allowed the valve head to "cock' and then be struck by the piston.

I believe the stress on a vertically mounted engine's thrust bearing will be much greater than it would be in a horizontal installation but I am guessing Honda probably accounted for that when putting these together. Witness the fact that many of these engines seem to last a long time with no complaints in that area. At least as far as I know...which isn't all that far, admittedly. I'm with chawk_man about the thrust bearing developing such clearance on a new engine and wonder if the lube issue was the cause of that AND the valve stem failures.

What can you tell us about the maintenance and type oil and any additives this engine got? Was there any oil analysis done during the failure assessment? And, if so, could you share any of that data?

Thanks.
 
First off, thank you very much both chawk_man and jgmo for your input and questions. I really believe in the value of this forum to bring out issues.

chawk_man:

Your question on "...why a thrust bearing failure?" was something I researched after the Honda tech performed the lift check and I discovered that BF225's between 2009 and 2011 were prone to this failure because Honda redesigned the thrust bearing. Engines after serial number 170 (my serial number is/was 150) have not seen this failure. If you do a search on "thrust bearing failure" you will see the posts but there have also been many examples of these same vintage engines going 5000 hours without a problem.

jgmo:

Regarding "...my reasoning...", the other posts I mentioned above have in common the "low engine oil alert" event stored in the ECM with an explaination that the dropping of the crank in the main bearings restricts oil flow. I believe (but can't remember which thread mentioned it) that the #2 cylinder was the most likely cylinder to be affected. The shop has not checked, yet, the valve stem conditions so my theory is pure speculation. I am using this forum to see if anyone else can validate this theory while waiting for the shop to check the stem conditions.

There is no evidence of corrosion on the valve stems.

I purchased the boat/engines at 27 hours and the dealer did the 25 hour service. I have performed all other services including the 200 hour recent service. I use Yamalube 10W-30 oil with no additional additives. No oil analysis was performed.

Thank you again for all your input and questions. I will continue to posts the results when and if more information comes available. BTW, I am very pleased with the performance of these engines, Honda, and their response to what I have discovered to be a low percentage issue which the luck of the draw resulted in my current condition. I completely believe in the quality of a Honda product and appreciate their support.
 
I have post same thread But it is BF 250..
It is big failure of Honda marine engines.8 new BF 250 engines already sized,Thrust washer failure. still couldn't find solution and reason, Honda japan say it is because of thrust washer materiel problem,and recently they come up with new reason, after machined the engine block failure to clean it properly,that remain metal debris pass through the thrust washer and damage it.yes i have seen metal debris in the oil pan(new engines),

that damaged engines some of 200-600 hrs and some over 1000 hrs.( all the engines done regular maintenance without fail.)

BF 225 not much engines had that issue.


Evan i have seen some Honda PILOT SUV had same engine problem,thrust washer failure. PILOT got same BF 250 engine.
So it is most likely thrust washer materiel problem.

Any way Honda is giving full warranty cover on this issue, with full block assembly, 2 head assembly,oil pump and gasket kit.

wajira
 
It is good to read that a check of metal material deposts in the oil as a result of the thrust bearing failure occurs. I will have the shop thoroughly disassemble and clean the reused heads, valve guides, and cams/bearings. Thanks wajira....!!!
 
Hi Paul,
the valve stem seals are there to prevent oil entering the valve guides.
Also, if there was an oil pressure supply problem feeding the cylinder heads, normally the first damage to occur is the camshaft seizing in the cylinder head.
Just thought that might help you narrow down the cause.

Bob
 
Thank you so much bobmech. I had forgoten about the valve stem seals. Now I'm back at square one. All I know is that the thrust bearing failed and one intake and one exhaust valve broke off in cylinder #2 to cause the sieze. Maybe this is a case of two independent events???? The shop has not said that the cam shaft has failed. Interesting....

This forum is great! Thank you, again, for all the input.
 
Wajira - thanks for confirming the issues.

Back in 2008 when My dealer received the replacement short block from Honda, they said that they disassembled it completely and re-cleaned everything before reassembly and installation. Paul - you might want to suggest that our dealer do the same.
 
Thank you, again, chawk_man! I will contact the dealer with this confirmed issue. My hope is that they will then contact Honda. I would hope that Honda has addressed this QA issue on their assembly line by now and any new short blocks are metal contamination free. I did find out that the two short blocks that were ordered were "back ordered" so it seems that the assembly line is working hard to keep up with production. The dealer said the replacement short blocks would be shipped on September 7th so the back order was not extreme.

When I initially researched the thrust bearing failure issue, the evidence seem to point to a bearing design flaw. What this thread has brought to the surface is that the issue is a metal contamination issue. Maybe that explains why the two valves may have stuck open and break off. I don't know. Just looking for as much feedback as possible.

Thank you all again!
 
Hi Paul,
Once one valve head has broken off(for whatever reason), it will pummel the other valves within that cylinder and typically cause those other valve heads to bend and break off, before the engine stops. A domino effect caused by one valve.

Bob
 
I totally agree that is what probably broke the intake valve head. When the event happened, I was cruising at about 23 mph with both engines at about 3500 rpm. Suddenly, I heard an immediate power loss so I pulled both throttles back to idle/neutral position. I looked down at the digital tach's and the port engine read zero while the starboard engine stayed at a smooth idle rpm. I lifted the port engine out of the water to see if I hit anything and put it back down since it was clean. Then I attempted to crank the port engine and I only got about a half a turn before it just locked up completely.

The reason for the lengthy story is to illustrate that the port engine probable tried to run for a few rpm's as demostrated by the photo's which gave the broken exhaust valve time to "domino" into braking off the intake valve. In addition, I didn't want to make this thread sound like the port engine was an immediate stoppage event. There were a very few seconds that the engine attempted to run but a bunch of things were all happening at the same time. The evidence on top of the piston verifies that the engine ran through a few rpms. See photos on initial post...

Thanks Bob...!
 
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