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Weird BF225 starting behavior

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Scubagrog

Contributing Member
I have a 2004 BF225 and it runs great, but it is doing something weird when starting. When the engine has sat for a while (a day or so) without starting, I prime the bulb, turn the key to the on position to wait for the indicator lights (temp and oil pressure) to go off, then turn the key to start and...nothing (no starter activity). I've tried holding the key for 20-30 sec and nothing (the manual says hold for 5-10 and stop to avoid draining battery, but I figure it isn't running the starter, so that's not a problem). Tried this several times in a row, no starter activity. But, if I wait 5 min or so without doing anything (I think I left the key in the on position, but am not sure about that), and try it then it will start after a little bit of holding to start, but well in that 5-10 sec range. From that point on, if I shut the engine off, even after it runs only 15 or 20 sec, it starts right up. It will continue to start easily for quite a while after (no problem at swimming stops or parking the boat to eat at a restaurant). The battery is charged (gauge says around 13V and so does multimeter) and it has done the same thing with another known good battery. I thought that maybe the main starter relay might be "sticking", but after replacing it, I still have the same I've also replaced the ignition switch and the kill switch (and yes, the kill switch key is in place). Anybody have any ideas?
 
Hi,
I've seen this type of symptom with rotten battery cables.

It could also simply be a bad cable connection.

You've probably cleaned and tightened both ends of the positive cable and the battery end of the negative cable with the work and battery swap you've described. But....that still leaves the negative battery cable end that is connected to the engine.
That end is likely bundled with several wires where it is secured. All those eyelets should be disassembled and wire brushed as those are the main ground connections for the electrical system.

I'm not saying that will fix your problem but it might. And, it's an important first step in the process of elimination for this complaint.

Finding other ground points and cleaning them too can't hurt either. It's a pain but also a necessity sometimes.

Since you are comfortable using a multimeter, I would also urge you to Google and read up on a troubleshooting technique known as "voltage drop testing"

It's a seemingly magical way to find current robbing resistance in wires, cables and terminal connections. It is a way to "see" (electrically) under the insulation of conductors and find broken strands or the infamous "green death" of wiring corrosion.

It is easy and even fun to do once you understand how and get the hang of it. It is also MUCH more accurate and reliable at finding resistance.in a circuit than using an ohmeter.

The main concept you have to get your head around is that volt drop testing is done while the circuit is being powered.

That and you use the test lead ends on ANY part of the circuit.

Try it, I think you'll like it.

Good luck.
 
On second thought...I can get you started volt drop testing now by giving you a simple exercise that also addresses your issue.

While your outboard is capable of cranking over, connect one voltmeter lead (doesn't matter which one) to the positive battery cable clamp or eyelet at the battery.

Connect the other lead to the positive battery cable eyelet at the starter.

You will see 0.00v.

Now, have someone crank the engine over briefly and note the reading. If the reading is less than 0.25v (lower the better) the battery cable is most likely in good condition.

You have just volt drop tested that cable.

Note that there was no reading until the circuit was "working".

You could then locate the engine connection for the negative battery cable and do the same test...

One meter lead on the cable clamp at the battery end and the other meter lead on the cable eye bolted to the engine.

0.00v reading initially then have a helper briefly crank the engine.
Again, there will be a reading.
Below 0.25v or lower....the cable is ok.

Look for a tutorial from ALLDATA on this subject. It's a really good one that's easy to understand.
It will probably help you immensely in figuring out this problem but also ANY electrical problem you may encounter in the future.

I should also mention that, if you are a FLIR (Forward Looking Infra Red) camera, that can help find electrical problems too.
Excess resistance in electrical circuits produce heat and those cameras can pick that up and help pinpoint the source.

Good luck
 
jgmo said:
On second thought...I can get you started volt drop testing now by giving you a simple exercise that also addresses your issue.

While your outboard is capable of cranking over, connect one voltmeter lead (doesn't matter which one) to the positive battery cable clamp or eyelet at the battery.

Connect the other lead to the positive battery cable eyelet at the starter.

You will see 0.00v.

Now, have someone crank the engine over briefly and note the reading. If the reading is less than 0.25v (lower the better) the battery cable is most likely in good condition.

You have just volt drop tested that cable.

Note that there was no reading until the circuit was "working".

You could then locate the engine connection for the negative battery cable and do the same test...

One meter lead on the cable clamp at the battery end and the other meter lead on the cable eye bolted to the engine.

0.00v reading initially then have a helper briefly crank the engine.
Again, there will be a reading.
Below 0.25v or lower....the cable is ok.

Look for a tutorial from ALLDATA on this subject. It's a really good one that's easy to understand.
It will probably help you immensely in figuring out this problem but also ANY electrical problem you may encounter in the future.

I should also mention that, if you are a FLIR (Forward Looking Infra Red) camera, that can help find electrical problems too.
Excess resistance in electrical circuits produce heat and those cameras can pick that up and help pinpoint the source.

Good luck
Click to expand...
Thanks for the reply. As you guessed, I have already cleaned the cable connectors at the battery end, but didn't think to see what was going on at the boat end. I'll try doing that next. As far as the voltage drop testing, I had thought about testing the voltage at the starter and comparing to the battery, but hadn't thought about just measuring the drop between the battery and starter terminal to get the difference right off. I'll probably give that a try next, if nothing else just to see if there could be an issue there (or a potential on later on). I'm assuming that it you find an issue with the voltage drop, then you start checking between segments where wires/cables connect to determine if that segment is an issue (It may be a straight run from battery to starter, I'm not actually at the engine to look and won't be for a few days).

I got this boat used at the end of last season and have not had a lot of use/done a lot of work on it. I did notice the other day when I was adding an inline fuel water separator that the cables to the battery were kinked up pretty bad the way they were run. The insulation looked to be fine, but seeing that high gauge wire bending like that kind of gave me pause. I straightened it out as much as I could (this issue was going on well before I did this, so I don't think straightening them did it, maybe the kinking could do it)

Could it be that the bad cable drops the voltage from the battery just enough to not trigger the starter relay at "normal" battery voltage and then once it runs a little and gets the alternator voltage level (14V ish) charging for a little bit on the battery it raises the battery voltage just enough to trigger it from then on until the battery voltage eventually drops back down to "normal" 12.6Vish level, which is then not enough to trigger the relay?
 
Pretty much any "12 volt" component will work reliably down to around 11 volts dc. So a battery with 12.6 volts potential should easily fire that relay UNLESS the relay is faulty OR there is excessive resistance in that circuit. But you say that you replaced the relay so now it's time to look for resistance.

Did you find and read the ALLDATA voltage drop tutorial?

If not, I highly recommend that you do before proceeding.
 
Scubagrog said:
I have a 2004 BF225 and it runs great, but it is doing something weird when starting. When the engine has sat for a while (a day or so) without starting, I prime the bulb, turn the key to the on position to wait for the indicator lights (temp and oil pressure) to go off, then turn the key to start and...nothing (no starter activity). I've tried holding the key for 20-30 sec and nothing (the manual says hold for 5-10 and stop to avoid draining battery, but I figure it isn't running the starter, so that's not a problem). Tried this several times in a row, no starter activity. But, if I wait 5 min or so without doing anything (I think I left the key in the on position, but am not sure about that), and try it then it will start after a little bit of holding to start, but well in that 5-10 sec range. From that point on, if I shut the engine off, even after it runs only 15 or 20 sec, it starts right up. It will continue to start easily for quite a while after (no problem at swimming stops or parking the boat to eat at a restaurant). The battery is charged (gauge says around 13V and so does multimeter) and it has done the same thing with another known good battery. I thought that maybe the main starter relay might be "sticking", but after replacing it, I still have the same I've also replaced the ignition switch and the kill switch (and yes, the kill switch key is in place). Anybody have any ideas?
Click to expand...
Hi. We had a similar problem with our BF250. We changed the ignition switch and the wiring harness, but that didn’t fix the issue. We then checked the battery voltage at the starter motor, and that was good, but when we checked the voltage at the fuse box on the front of the engine, it only had 7.5 volts. There is a wire that supplies power to the engine that is separate from the main battery, This lead runs along the side of the main positive battery cable that comes out of the engine and should go to the battery. Check to make sure it has a good connection. Best of luck, and i hope this fixes your problem.
 
jgmo said:
Pretty much any "12 volt" component will work reliably down to around 11 volts dc. So a battery with 12.6 volts potential should easily fire that relay UNLESS the relay is faulty OR there is excessive resistance in that circuit. But you say that you replaced the relay so now it's time to look for resistance.

Did you find and read the ALLDATA voltage drop tutorial?

If not, I highly recommend that you do before proceeding.
Click to expand...
OK did the test a few times. It doesn't seem that there was much drop at all. Everything seemed to read below that 0.25VV change except for 1 time and I think I just didn't have the leads on well. When the starter engages, it cranks strong and has no trouble getitng the engine to start within a few seconds.

Someting I did find before I got the starter to engage is when checking the voltage at the small cable that goes to the blade connector on the starter from the relay is there is no voltage when the key was turned to start. We tried a few cycles of turning the key off and going back to on (and waiting for the lights to go out (I could hear the fuel pump priming that I've seen several posts mentioned while that was going on) and attempting a start holding several seconds and on I believe it was the 4th time there was voltage coming through that cable and it started right up. Again, shutting it off within a few seconds and restarting was no problem. I don't believe the issue is the starter having enough juice coming in, it just seems to be that trigger signal being cut off for a bit.

Could the ECM have an issue that it's waiting to send the signal to close the switch to let it start? I think I read that there are some self tests that are done before it lets you start.

I also know the neutral safety switch is involved in completing that circuit, but we did nothing that should change its state, but I guess there could be something in that that might be a culprit.
 
john coward said:
Hi. We had a similar problem with our BF250. We changed the ignition switch and the wiring harness, but that didn’t fix the issue. We then checked the battery voltage at the starter motor, and that was good, but when we checked the voltage at the fuse box on the front of the engine, it only had 7.5 volts. There is a wire that supplies power to the engine that is separate from the main battery, This lead runs along the side of the main positive battery cable that comes out of the engine and should go to the battery. Check to make sure it has a good connection. Best of luck, and i hope this fixes your problem.
Click to expand...
Thanks for replying, John. I just went out and double checked the voltage at the fuse boxes and all seem to be showing the full 12V.
 
That is very good information and will help to narrow this problem down quite a bit.

The white wire that plugs into the starter mag switch is fed directly from the MAIN RELAY assembly.

I'm no expert on the 225 and have never touched one but I have seen several instances of people reporting problems with that component.

But, it's expensive and shouldn't be replaced as a guess. Further trouble shooting should be done prior to condemning yours.

I will go over the wiring diagram and get back to you about where to take some voltage readings.

Just know that I believe that you have now narrowed it down and are close to solving the mystery.

Be back soon.
 
I actually did replace the Main relay already and it made no difference. That's why I think it may be something upstream of it.

BTW, funny thing, I was looking at the wiring diagram and noticed that it said that wire was white, but I remember it being black when I hooked it up. Turns out the wire is actually white and has some sort of black wrapping on it.
 
Ok, well, assuming the new main relay is good......

It's looking like it's going to be the proverbial bad connection.

This is where volt drop testing can really help.

Although, a faster way....if it works....would be to identify likely trouble spots with the wiring diagram and then do some "wiggle n shake" while trying to crank the starter.

The problem with that method is that the problem has to be happening.

Volt dropping will likely flag a higher than normal resistance even if it isn't bad enough to cause the issue.

So...it's a choice.

If it won't crank and you wiggle a connector or wire that's causing the problem, you get instant gratification.

The problem is, if it suddenly "fixes" itself, you have no choice but to volt drop because, we both know.....it AIN'T really gonna fix itself. It will, instead, leave you dead in the water.

The place I would pick to check first is simply the battery feed circuit from lug 27 on the schematic (fuse box) that powers the two White/black wires and two 10 amp fuses. I would start by disassembling that connection point and cleaning each eyelet before proceeding.

One of those wires travels through a 4 pin section of connector 16 and feeds the battery terminal on the ignition switch.

I'll stop here and ask you....

Tell me if you agree or want to go a different way.
Because, there's more than one way to find this and your way might just make more sense.

If you want more suggestions just let me know.
 
Haven't been able to do much on the boat for a bit. I've had some car issues and weather hasn't been cooperative. Just a quick update (mainly for trying to keep the thread complete if anyone else is having the issue)...I did get to take the boat out this weekend and was starting it in the yard before I left, but this time I turned the key to "on", didn't try to start and stepped away for a minute or so just to make sure the earmuffs were on well and it started up after holding the key on "start" for about 5 seconds. I really think there may something going on with the computer going through some checks and holding it up and the first start just takes its time.
 
Further update....the boat never had the check engine or alternator lights. I had an open gauge slot on the dash, so I got the Honda dash light gauge and got it installed. Also, I realized the buzzer/beeper was not sounding when switched to on (don't think it has since I got it). I chased out the continuity on the buzzer wire and found there is a short in it (and at least one other unused wire) between the 14p plug at the engine and the wiring harness for the gauges/console (think they call that run of wires the main wiring harness, but it's not the harness that is inside the engine). Anyway, got a new one of those and hooked it up (just kind of in a temporary way and I haven't run it through the boat yet). The warning chime seems to work just fine with it.
The new twist is after turning the switch to "on" the overheat and oil pressure warning lights light up and go out after 2 seconds and the alternator warning light comes on stays lit, like those should, however, the check engine light remains lit (should go off after 2 sec). No warning buzzer. I haven't stated the engine with the new harness yet, but had done it with the old one and the alternator warning light went off as it should, but the check engine light remains lit. I tried shorting out the red connector to get codes (I did use the actual plug used for it and not the paperclip), but the check engine light stays lit and doesn't blink. For that, the shop manual steps through a process of unplugging components (MAP, Throttle Position, and trim position sensor) and checking the voltage on the connectors for those components, including voltage in the red connector. Anyway, after stepping through it, I got down to "replace the ECM". Bought one on Ebay and will replace when it gets in. Crossing my fingers that this is it.
 
you said you were not getting voltage to the bade connector on the starter? a must for it to start. think someone posted same problem and fixed it by replacing neutral safety switch. check alignment where neutral switch end meets detent arm before replacing
 
The blade connector would eventually get voltage. I think some of the issue may be the ECM pausing before letting the "signal' go through to the blade connector. I've been stepping through that and finally got some codes (still really weird behavior with the check engine light though). It appears it may be the BARO sensor (error 13) and the vtec solenoid valve (error 23). Walked through the baro sensor test procedure and it came down to replace baro sensor and retest. I haven't done the testing for the VTEC solenoid because I need to run it for a bit at 5000 rpm and I don't really want to do that on ear muffs in the yard, so I need to get on the lake and from what I'm reading, it sounds as if one could affect the other.
 
Got in contact with the gentleman that sold me the ECM. He told me that it should plug in and work correctly with no problems and no programming should need to be done. I actually got a new BARO sensor in and got it replaced, then swapped out the ECM and attempted to start the engine on ear muffs. Starter began turning right away with no wait (first time I remember that happening since I got it). All the warning lights went off except for the green oil pressure, and it seemed to run just fine with no alarms. Now to try it on the water tomorrow to see what happens at higher rpms. 🤞
 
Well, took the boat out yesterday. The engine started right up again, so I think before the old ECM was causing the delay. I haven't tried starting it with the old one installed to see if it may have been the BARO sensor. I may do that later this week since swapping the ECM out is really easy to do, mainly to follow up for this thread. Also, the engine ran great. I had a little more load on the boat than normal (extra people) so the top end of rpms was a bit lower (and my tach has been sticking a bit (just another thing).
 
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