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Honda BF150 very intermittent starting problem

C

captbron

New member
Hello guys I have a pair of 2006 150's on a 26 Glacier Bay Cat and they have been basically flawless for 2400hrs until this little gremlin showed up. When you turn the key on you get 2 beeps and all lights etc come on but there is not a sound when you try and start engine. Originally it was thought to be nuetral safety switch since shifting the binnacle seemed to sometimes fix the problem even though it appeared linkage was in right position. They actually shorted the nuetral safety switch to bypass it and about a week later the problem returned. There is no click of a solenoid etc when you turn the key. Boat is stored in the water and engines are always trimmed up. Battery connections etc have been checked and cleaned. After a few tries the motor will usually start. Anyone have a similar problem? My mechanic thinks it may be the key switch itself.
 
A couple of thoughts....

If you mechanic thinks it could be the key switch, have him switch it to the other engine.

If it were me, I would check the black/white lead coming from the key switch and see if there is 12 v on it when the switch is turned to start. You said that the lights come on and the beeps work, so the key switch is getting voltage. If 12v is not there, then probably key switch. If you get 12v, then it is something else.

The black/white lead goes back to the engine, first though a six pin connector under the dash, then to the 14 pin connector on the engine, to the main relay assy. A white lead comes out of the main relay assy (which also has a start relay in it) and goes to the starter. A ten amp fuse supplies the power that the starter relay passes to activate the starter (blown fuse?). The ground is supplied through the neutral safety switch.

It is possible that the main relay assy is bad, but you you really should trace and troubleshoot before you start changing parts.

If you do not have a wiring diagram, you can download an owner's manual from Honda http://cdn.powerequipment.honda.com/marine/pdf/manuals/31ZY6603.pdf The wiring diagram is in the back of the manual.

Just follow the black/white and then the white leads and you should be able to find the location of the problem....unless it is on the negative side with the neutral safety switch leads.

Mike
 
I don't want to jump in and give you any troubleshooting "tips" other than what Mike has to offer. He is the resident expert.

I just want to say that, as you or your mechanic work your way through the wiring. you could benefit from using contact cleaner on any terminal you have disconnected. There is another product that works very well on these connections too. It is called DE-OXIT or DEOXIT. a little spritz on any connector that you have apart and the resultant "pin drag" that takes place during the disconnect/reconnect process may restore good contact to a corroded terminal and might just make your "gremlins" disappear.

Good luck.
 
hondadude said:
A couple of thoughts....

If you mechanic thinks it could be the key switch, have him switch it to the other engine.

If it were me, I would check the black/white lead coming from the key switch and see if there is 12 v on it when the switch is turned to start. You said that the lights come on and the beeps work, so the key switch is getting voltage. If 12v is not there, then probably key switch. If you get 12v, then it is something else.

The black/white lead goes back to the engine, first though a six pin connector under the dash, then to the 14 pin connector on the engine, to the main relay assy. A white lead comes out of the main relay assy (which also has a start relay in it) and goes to the starter. A ten amp fuse supplies the power that the starter relay passes to activate the starter (blown fuse?). The ground is supplied through the neutral safety switch.

It is possible that the main relay assy is bad, but you you really should trace and troubleshoot before you start changing parts.

If you do not have a wiring diagram, you can download an owner's manual from Honda http://cdn.powerequipment.honda.com/marine/pdf/manuals/31ZY6603.pdf The wiring diagram is in the back of the manual.

Just follow the black/white and then the white leads and you should be able to find the location of the problem....unless it is on the negative side with the neutral safety switch leads.

Mike
Click to expand...

thanks mike after a lot of troubleshooting since it was a very intermittent problem we found the wiring harness was the culprit small break in wire inside rigging tube.
 
hondadude said:
A couple of thoughts....

If you mechanic thinks it could be the key switch, have him switch it to the other engine.

If it were me, I would check the black/white lead coming from the key switch and see if there is 12 v on it when the switch is turned to start. You said that the lights come on and the beeps work, so the key switch is getting voltage. If 12v is not there, then probably key switch. If you get 12v, then it is something else.

The black/white lead goes back to the engine, first though a six pin connector under the dash, then to the 14 pin connector on the engine, to the main relay assy. A white lead comes out of the main relay assy (which also has a start relay in it) and goes to the starter. A ten amp fuse supplies the power that the starter relay passes to activate the starter (blown fuse?). The ground is supplied through the neutral safety switch.

It is possible that the main relay assy is bad, but you you really should trace and troubleshoot before you start changing parts.

If you do not have a wiring diagram, you can download an owner's manual from Honda http://cdn.powerequipment.honda.com/marine/pdf/manuals/31ZY6603.pdf The wiring diagram is in the back of the manual.

Just follow the black/white and then the white leads and you should be able to find the location of the problem....unless it is on the negative side with the neutral safety switch leads.

Mike
Click to expand...
Mike,
I appreciated your logical approach to the Honda starter problem. Where is the 10 amp fuse you reference in the above text, that protects the starter relay?
Rob Sample
Friendship , Maine
 
Hi Rob,
Welcome to the forum. Mike (hondadude) hasn't posted here for several years.....we miss him greatly.

But to answer your question, you can click on the link he provided for an owners manual and the explanation for fuse location is on page 91.

It is fuse #3 (10A) located under the fuse case lid which in turn is located under the much larger electrical parts cover on the port side of the engine.

I hope this helps.

Good luck.
 
Thank you for your response. The #3 fuse was blown. This could have blown when I was taking out the ignition switch to test it. I have replaced it and it has not cured the starter problem. You cannot get the starter to turn from the ignition switch. The fuse has not blown again. I have checked the black/white wire from the switch to the ECM and it is good. In fact, when I turn the ignition switch (to start position, I get full voltage from the ignition switch to the ECM. How can I test the ECM for proper output? I know my starter and solinoid are ok, as I ran a test circiut to the starter and it starts the engine and runs just fine.
 
Well, unlike Mike (hondadude) I'm not the master Honda tech. I used to ask him questions all the time.

But, I am "fair to middlin" reading wiring diagrams so I will do my best to try and help you figure this out.

But first, do you have a digital multimeter and are you comfortable using the volts and ohm functions?

And, do you have the shop manual by chance? That free owners manual, while helpful, won't do us much good locating key components like connectors and the wiring diagram is just not very legible. Especially with being able to read the pertinent wire color codes. We'll need the correct wire colors to identify things like the green, two wire neutral switch connector. I can make it work but it will be a slog....if you get my drift.

The first step at sorting this out would be to check that ALL FUSES are good.

Next is to verify the NEUTRAL SWITCH function. That switch tells the ECM that the transmission is in neutral and to allow the starter to crank.

A quick test you could try is to hold the ignition switch in the START position then gently nudge the shift lever forward and backward see if the starter will engage. If it does, then it might be that the neutral switch is simply out of adjustment.

Of course, you need to be cautious doing this because there's a chance the engine could fire and start in gear. That could be dangerous if you're at the dock but not tied up securely OR if you're on the trailer and anyone is near the prop.

I'll stop now and start tracing the wires as best I can.
 
Hi J,
I do have a multimeter and am somewhat proficient. As for the manual, I have printed it off a couple of links, but the wire colors and small details are not very legible, so I ordered a full original manual off Ebay. All the fuses are good. The neutral switch function is not blocking the voltage. I am focusing on the main relay and not the ECM right now. Can you help with that process?
Rob
Friendship , Maine
 
Ok,

The diagram shows 3 connectors for the main relay.
1 has 5 pins (wires)
Another has 4 pins (wires)
And the 3rd has 2 pins (wires)

Hopefully that matches what you see on your outboard.

When the ignition switch is turned to start, 12 volts is supplied to the W/bl (White /black stripe) wire in the 5 pin connector to energize the starter relay control coil inside the main relay housing.

The volts leave that coil and exit the main relay housing via the Bl/bu (Black/blue) wire, through the 5 pin connector and on to the neutral switch then to ground via the black wire.
The start relay coil is now supposed to be energized and should close the relay contacts.

The relay contacts are fed 12 volts from the #3 fuse via the W/y (White/yellow) wire through the 4 pin connector.

When the start relay points close, that voltage is delivered through the White wire via the 2 pin connector and on to the starter magnetic switch (solenoid).and the engine should crank.

That's the way I see it anyway.

If you "backprobe" those 4 particular wires while the ignition switch is closed, they should all have 12 volts present.

Good luck.
 
Correction:
The White wire is shown exiting the main relay housing directly and does NOT go through the 2 pin connector.

Apologies.
 
As an aside, I keep a bag of small "T" pins for piercing wires for testing and a bottle of clear nail polish for repairing the insulation afterwards.

I think it's a much easier way to interrogate circuits than using "bed of nails" or other expensive devices.

I also think it eliminates the risk of damaging connector terminals by backprobing them.

Although, pretty much any invasive testing on wires is always subject to cause damage if you're not careful.
 
Page 2-23 of shop manual says if starter motor not turning check fuse 3 which you replaced and check fuse 7 the 30A fuse. you said you have checked all the fuses but verify with ohm meter for continuity on the 30amp fuse. If #7 is good check the neutral switch then the PGM-FI main relay. The small black speaker cable connector wire on the starter comes from the PGM-FI relay. Make sure that blade and female connector attaching it to the starter isn't loose. If not loose use a jumper and connect 12 volts to the blade on starter, if after jumping (might need someone to turn key while jumping) and think you can use red power wire off starter to jump to the blade post and starter turns then PGM-FI relay not sending power.
 
jgmo said:
Ok,

The diagram shows 3 connectors for the main relay.
1 has 5 pins (wires)
Another has 4 pins (wires)
And the 3rd has 2 pins (wires)

Hopefully that matches what you see on your outboard.

When the ignition switch is turned to start, 12 volts is supplied to the W/bl (White /black stripe) wire in the 5 pin connector to energize the starter relay control coil inside the main relay housing.

The volts leave that coil and exit the main relay housing via the Bl/bu (Black/blue) wire, through the 5 pin connector and on to the neutral switch then to ground via the black wire.
The start relay coil is now supposed to be energized and should close the relay contacts.

The relay contacts are fed 12 volts from the #3 fuse via the W/y (White/yellow) wire through the 4 pin connector.

When the start relay points close, that voltage is delivered through the White wire via the 2 pin connector and on to the starter magnetic switch (solenoid).and the engine should crank.

That's the way I see it anyway.

If you "backprobe" those 4 particular wires while the ignition switch is closed, they should all have 12 volts present.

Good luck.
Click to expand...
J,
Thank you for the amazing research. I have power coming into the main relay. When I tested the output Black/Blue wire with my test light (with the key to start position) THE ENGINE STARTS AS IT SHOULD! So, somehow my tester created a needed ground to complete the circuit through the neutral safety switch. The neutral safety switch has never been connected at the shifter near the steering wheel. Is there a neutral safety switch on the Honda motor that may have a problem?
Rob
 
J,
Thanks to your help, I am launching tomorrow. The problem was in the neutral switch on the Honda motor, not the neutral switch at the driver throttle. The Honda switch is hard to find and is small button switch that somehow got out of adjustment and needed the stop to be repositioned. All is well and I thank you very much. The schematic of the Honda shifter cables/assembly and small switch were the answer. Thank you so much. I hope I can pay back to someone on the forum.
Rob
Friendship , Maine
 
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