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Help my volvo 302 ford engine is seized

M

marshall43

Member
"Ouch, I was putting my 1974 G

"Ouch, I was putting my 1974 Glastron boat back into service and found that the engine is seized. The boat is in great shape. It has a 270 Volvo I/O and only has 350 hours on it. I apparently forgot to drain the water when put in storage and found two freeze plugs in the bilge.

I don't want to put too much money in it but the hull is in great shape and the unit has allways been stored under cover. Any ideas for this one? Should I rebuild it?

Thanks,

Jim Marshall"
 
"James, I'm afraid that yo

"James, I'm afraid that your engine is scrap by now. Most of the times the block is already cracked by the time the freeze plugs pop. I would get either a new engine or a new long block, depending on how much longer you intend to keep your boat. Have a look at this:

http://www.ebasicpower.com/engines/base/351.htm

This other one is probably a better alternative for your budget.

http://www.rapidomarine.com/default.aspx?p=/engines/default.aspx

Unfortunately, you live far from Vancouver Island (BC, Canada) because I have a used 351 long block (ex-AQ240) that would have probably done the trick for you.

Lastly, consider installing a fresh water cooling kit with your new or rebuilt engine so that you don't run again into the same problem."
 
I think that the fresh water k

I think that the fresh water kit would be a great idea. I noticed lots of rust in the water passages. I looked a rapidomarine. I am not so sure of them. We used to go up motor sailing in the Gulf islands. Love it up there.

Jim
 
"Here are some pics. Not bad

"Here are some pics. Not bad for a 33 year old boat.

Well, I pulled all of the stuff off of the engine including Carb, ignition, cooling, electrical, etc. I am looking at the back of the engine wondering how I get the thing out. So many bolts and so little space. I know that I have to pull the stern drive but which bolts are the ones that release the engine.

Today, between football games I am going to pull the stern drive and then the questions start flying:

1. 302 vs. 351? What things can I do with a 302 to give it a little more guts? Are the 351 engines worth the work?

2. How does all of that exhaust get out through the stern drive without restriction? No Flowmaster here.

3. Are the existing OEM exhaust manifolds really as bad as they are portrayed?

4. How am I going to convert this to freshwater given the fact that there is not much room back there?

5. The engine rebuilder says that there is not difference between an auto engine and a marine engine. Is that true?

6. If I opt for better exhaust manifolds will they connect up to the volvo 270.

7. Why do I get myself into these things? It looked simple at the outset.

Again, thanks to all of you that are more experienced than I am.




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"
 
"Jim,

To remove the engine

"Jim,

To remove the engine, you need to remove first the outdrive: remove the clamps from the exhaust and drive bellows, as well as from the raw water hose connector; then remove the shift cover in the outdrive and disconnect the shift cable from the shift mechanism; then remove the two screws and the tab securing the shift cable to the intermediate housing in the front of the outdrive; then remove the steering helmet middle bolt; then remove the hinge pins; and then pull the drive away from the transom shield. Afterwards, flatten the lock tabs securing the six bolts in the clamp ring in the transom shield; then, unscrew the six bolts. After the bolts are removed, the clamp ring can be removed. However, you want first to secure the engine to an engine hoist with a sling and a couple of shackles. Prior to pulling the engine, you have to disconnect all wiring, the fuel line going to the fuel pump, and the exhaust hoses attaching the exhaust manifold risers to the exhaust y-pipe, as well as removing the nuts from the engine mounts and the raw water hose attached to the raw water pump. Once you have done all this, remove the clamping ring fro the transom shield and pull the engine. The engine is removed with the bellhousing attached to it.

Now, to your questions.

1) The differences between the Ford 302 and 351 Windsor are basically the same as between the 305 and 350 Chevs: same block, larger bore. Many parts are interchangeable between the 302 and 351. The 302 has its limitations, so while you can get about 190 HP from a 302 you can get 231 HP from a 351. Considering that both engines weigh basically the same, that's a good improvement.

2) The 302 and 351 (AQ190 and AQ240) do have the same transom shield, exhaust pipe and exhaust manifolds. If you have a 302 installed, you can also install a 351, it is a direct swap.

3) The original manifolds were a PITA. using the aftermarket manifolds made by OSCO or other brands is a big improvement (and they are cheaper as well).

4) I have a fresh water kit (made by San Juan Engineering) available for this engine. The heat exchanger gets attached to the engine above the circulating pump and it is roughly the same width as the distance between exhaust manifolds. The conversion is a piece of cake.

5) The block is the same, but many other parts are not.

6) Yes, there is a kit available. I think I still have mine somewhere (not the manifolds or risers - I dumped those-, but the two elbows and the connecting hoses).

7) Good question, for which I'm afraid I have no answer. At least, you are looking at a direct swap, while I converted from Ford to Chevy. That was expensive!!"
 
"In your first paragraph you s

"In your first paragraph you say, "then remove the steering helmet middle bolt; then remove the hinge pins; and then pull the drive away from the transom shield."

I removed the lock screws for the retaining pins and tried to remove the retaining pins. I shot some penetrating oil in the lock screw holes but the pins appear to be really locked in. I am afraid to drive them too hard.

What is the steering helmet middle bolt?

Also, I crawled into the boat and was able to turn the crankshaft by hand. Was I too impatient? Probably good to go through it anyway.

Jim
115447.jpg
}"
 
"In your first paragraph you s

"In your first paragraph you say, "then remove the steering helmet middle bolt; then remove the hinge pins; and then pull the drive away from the transom shield."

I removed the lock screws for the retaining pins and tried to remove the retaining pins. I shot some penetrating oil in the lock screw holes but the pins appear to be really locked in. I am afraid to drive them too hard.

What is the steering helmet middle bolt?

Also, I crawled into the boat and was able to turn the crankshaft by hand. Was I too impatient? Probably good to go through it anyway.

Jim}"
 
"One pin is moving, one is han

"One pin is moving, one is hanging tough. I think that I will let the penetrating oil work a bit more, then maybe heat it with a torch.

By the way, do I have to make a support when this thing comes out? I know it is ackward, but how heavy? I had an old Mercruiser once that had a lifting eye in it.

Jim

That Kreen really did loosen up the pistons in the engine.

Jim"
 
"Finally got the pins out and

"Finally got the pins out and I am now removing the stern drive. Made this quick jig but the unit is still hanging tough. Is there additional retainers, bolts, etc. that have to be removed?

Jim
115552.jpg
"
 
"Hey Jim, that's a nice ji

"Hey Jim, that's a nice jig!! You should consider patenting it.
biggrin.gif


Back to your question, the outdrive should just slide out. If it doesn't, then the splines between primary shaft and u-joint joke are seized. You should then find a way of prying it out. If everything else fails, you may have to end undoing the four Allen screws 35, then pulling the clamping ring 34 and u-joint assembly from the rest of the upper gear assembly, then removing the Allen screw 32 so that the joint fork 24A can slide out of the gear 11. You would then have to pull the engine with the u-joint attached to the primary shaft and remove it afterwards.

http://www.volvopentastore.com/UPPER_GEAR_UNIT_AQ_DRIVE_UNIT_280/dm/store_id.366 --session_id.882609563--cart_id.443433535--category_id.332315--list_time.1193152 222--view_id.317009

BTW, I know this comes a bit too late after the fight you had with the hinge pins. Many people prefer to just remove the upper gear assembly and leave the rest of the outdrive attached to the transom shield. While that system is simpler than pulling the whole outdrive, the setback is that hinge pins will have a tendency to become seized (as you have already experienced), as swell as the shift cable sleeve end will react and become seized to the passage in the intermediate housing, etc, and you cannot have a thorough inspection of the outdrive (including inside the intermediate housing). This is why I favour pulling the whole outdrive, but I apologize for not posting also the other method so that you could have picked either option."
 
"Hi El,

I think that I woul

"Hi El,

I think that I would rather not get into the upper gear unit so I decided to try to pry it out. I used a 8' length of square steel tubing as a lever against the housing with wood blocks between. It grudgingly came out. The jig worked great--no surprises. You can crank the trailer wheel up and down to get the right height.

I hope to leave the drive unit untouched. The oil was clean and bright when I drained it. The bellows have only been changed once in the past 33 years (didn’t know how often they needed changing) but they seem to still be in good shape. I am glad that I got the pins out. I definitely am going to change the bellows.

I will work on your next steps and let you know if I get into problems.

Would this be a good time to change the u-joints? Any other things? Whats the best place to get parts?

Thanks again,

Jim



By the way, I had a Mercruiser years ago. I believe that the exhaust went across the u-joints. Anyway, I found water in the oil. When I pulled it apart I found a faulty seal. It was pitted and rusted. I had the seal surface machined and industrial chromed. That is the way it should have come. It looks like Volvos are built better.


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"
 
"Removed belows, bent the tabs

"Removed belows, bent the tabs, and removed the 6 bolts. All the stuff (carb, electrical, cooling, wiring) has been pulled off the engine. Now I have to regroup to set up the engine hoist before I pull the clamping ring.

Had a bit of trouble with the clamp ring bolts. Will probably replace at least some. Threads were no problem. It was the heads that were rusty. Six point socket just made it. Shouldn't the bolts be stainless?

Jim

Jim"
 
"Stainless is too soft; and de

"Stainless is too soft; and depending on the grade, is not as corrosion resistant as the bolts you have now installed. I suggest you replace the faulty bolts with OEM (part 191844); they are about 9 bucks apiece, but well worth it."
 
"The U Joints look and feel go

"The U Joints look and feel good but I suppose it is best to replace them. I am wondering how tough it will be to get them out.

Also, the outer shaft has some deterioration on it but I assume that it has no seal on the larger or smaller part of the shaft (see pix).
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115581.jpg


Jim"
 
"Jim, if you don't have th

"Jim, if you don't have the Seloc manual, I suggest you get one. It will be money well spent. It also shows how to replace the u-joints, which by the way is not rocket science. Yes, replacing the u-joints will be cheap insurance.

The U-joint forward yoke looks good on the outside, that bit of pitting is not inthe area where it mates with the lip seal. Make sure the splines are clean and not worn. I guess you have the coarse spline (10 splines).

Once you have the bellhousing out, you may want to install a new bearing and new seals. Again, that is cheap insurance."
 
"It looks like the u-joint ret

"It looks like the u-joint retainers are in the inside rather than the outside. That shouldn't be too tough if they are reasonable fits.

I see that Marine Engine and Volvo Parts only sells certain parts and then directs to the Volvo dealer. I guess I need to find one locally or?

I am going to replace 4 of the long bolts. Two were out of the water and in good shape.

I have one of the Seloc Manuals coming. I am sure it will be much better than the one I have that covers Mercruiser, OMC, Volvo and several others.

Everything around the U-Joints looked good with no rust. The spline was a bit rusty. I will track down some parts and try to keep things rolling. By the way one of the plastic bushings on the pivot pin was broken. If you can think of anything else that should be replaced let me know.

It seems like the splines, bolts and other parts should be coated with something like never seize or even waterproof grease.

Now that I have things down I will try to be more diligent about replacing bellows and other parts.

Jim"
 
"Earlier in this string, there

"Earlier in this string, there was talk of replacing the 302 with a 351W. While the bellhousing bolts, motor mounts and the bottom half of the engine is nearly identical between the two, the 351W has a much taller deck height which means that it is taller and wider than the 302.

Some checking should be done to evaluate the impact to the position of things like the exhaust manifolds, the height of the carb, flame arrester and the throttle linkage. Also the oil pan rails are different, so the 302 pan won't fit the 351W block, so whatever oil pan is on the 351w will have to clear the supports etc. in the boat.

Even simple changes can have unforseen consequences. You can never have enough forsight."
 
"Gilbert,

Thanks for your i

"Gilbert,

Thanks for your input. The engine cover is pretty tight as it is. I think that you are right and I should stick with the 302. I have already seen enough unanticpated things without adding more complexity.

Jim"
 
"One other thought James, when

"One other thought James, when you actually get to fixing the engine/freeze plugs. Our vintage car racing team had some one let a 289/302 SBF block freeze because of imcompletely draining it, and it did pop the freeze plugs out. External visual inspection did not reveal any cracks, we installed new freeze plugs and raced the car/engine for 2 more years before rebuilding. Sometimes you get lucky. Your engine may just need to be rebuilt not replaced."
 
"Jim, here are the dimensions

"Jim, here are the dimensions of the A240A (351 Ford). This will help you to see whether or not you have sufficient space.

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"
 
"El,

It looks like everythi

"El,

It looks like everything is about the same except the exhaust manifold width which is quite a bit wider.

Jim"
 
El - I like the drawing that y

El - I like the drawing that you provided above. Could you provide a similar drawing for the AQ190 and also the AQ231?

Also - What parts would need to be changed to install a SBF 351W engine in place of the 305 Chevy? I know that I would need a bellhousing.

gilbert
 
"Gilbert, here are the AQ231A

"Gilbert, here are the AQ231A dimensions. Unfortunately, I don't think I have the drawing indicating the dimensions of the AQ190 in my database, but they should be pretty close to the AQ240A.

115666.jpg



Now let's talk about the challenges ahead to make the conversion. Yes, you need a bellhousing that can adapt a Ford 302 or 351W to a 270-280-290 transom shield. I have one of those around, but all these bellhousings came provided with the coarse (10 groove) spline in the primary shaft, and your outdrive comes with the fine spline (26 groove). That can normally overcome by either replacing the u-joint front yoke with one that has a coarse spline, or the whole u-joint assembly altogether (including front and back yokes) for one that comes from a 270, 275 or 280 drive. Also, you need a Y-pipe that will accept the exhaust manifolds. And you will need aftermarket exhaust manifolds and 3" risers. Then, the challenge is to adapt the risers to the Y-pipe. In your case, since you obviously have a 290 drive, it will adapting the 3" exhaust from the risers to the almost 4" Y-pipe (it is a metric dimension) that comes with your drive. It is doable, but it will involve some customization.

If you want to debate further about this, please start another thread so that we do not mix topics."
 
"El,

I took a couple of day

"El,

I took a couple of days off to work on my developing shop getting ready to lift the engine. Now I am going to do some more research on the engine. Someone posted that 351 heads mounted on a 302 works and improves breathing. I am also interested in exhaust manifolds, etc to get some more power out of the engine. Also in fresh water cooling. Let me know if you have any ideas.

Some ideas so far:

Tear down the engine and see what I have. 351 heads? Engine rebuild? New long block?

Carbs or EFI. I rounded up a cheap Mercruiser EFI complete less intake manifold 1993 version. I may use it. If not I will put it back on ebay. Also, I noticed my carb has no J-Tubes (came new that way). If I stick to a carb will that be a problem (450 CFM Holley)?

Marine exhaust. I have heard that the stock ones are very restrictive.

This time I am looking for a good engine manual. Any ideas after my past old Clymer manual disaster?

Jim

P.S. My wife says that I get my exercise by doing everything the hard way.

115750.jpg

Engine turns over by hand--there may be hope."
 
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