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Difficulty starting wont idle once warmed up (1985 E25ELCOC)

4

455hota

Member
This winter the carb, choke solenoid and the fuel pump was rebuilt. The engine starts fine when cold and idles. Once it warms up, it has hard time starting and idling.
To get it started i have to lift up on the upper throttle lever, but to shift it in gear, but the upper throttle lever has to be lowered, and it will stall before you can get it in gear. I adjusted the idle screw to the factory setting during the carb rebuild.
Any thoughts? This is my first outboard motor so i am still learning.
…thanks Steve
 
I can not see or hear your motor.----Step # is to do a compression test.----Post the actual values here.----Check flywheel key.----Thermostat in place and working ?
 
Added questions: (1) what is the correct way to use the fast idle lever on the top of the remote control unit? (2) what is the purpose of the control adjust knob on the back side of the remote control unit?
 
I will do a compression test in a day or so. Meantime the flywheel key was fine, during the removal of the flywheel, when i installed a new charging coil. I had to use a puller to properly remove the flywheel. I tested the charging during todays voyage. Two pics showing a voltage increase:

Photos too big. I will remedy the file size.
 
IMG_1255.jpeg

This is the starting voltage.
 
Today I was able to do a compression test. Top cylinder 118-120 psi, bottom cylinder 118-120 psi. I believe this to be a good compression test? My service book says anything over 100 psi is fine, and both cylinders should be equal.

I checked the voltage on the primer solenoid, and it is 12 volts when the key switch is depressed, and you can hear the solenoid engaging.

I checked the output of each ignition coil with an in line spark tester (neon light flashes when there is a spark), I had NO spark. I checked the voltage on the orange wires feeding the ignition coils, and got 3 volts ac. Np sure how to interpret this piece of data???

I have been reading in my service book and I believe I have a Type II Capacitor Discharge system. I believe this system has no points?

BTW today I could not get the engine to start... I am stumped... Steve
 
Compression is great. That's not it.

Carb considerations, what do your plugs look like? Likely a non-issue but you can adjust a carb wrong and eventually horribly foul plugs, making them mostly non-operational.

No spark - this is probably the issue. I mean you need spark :) . Lookup the tests in a repair manual for power pack, a likely source of problems. Less likely stator or trigger. But all these parts can fail when warmed up then return to working right once cooled down.

Grounds do matter, too. And poorly grounded things can become more poorly grounded when an engine heats up, or just randomly.
 
The first pic is the upper spark plug when i did the compression test:
The second pic is the lower spark plug before the compression test.
I was going to follow the CDII trouble shooting procedure in my manual tomorrow. Hopefully some good data will be produced.
Also another observation: one ignition coil seems to have gotten hot and had some black tar stuff melt / ooze out. Does this provide any clues?
 

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I believe the correct answer is no, a spark cannot jump 3/8” or 0.375”. I pulled my plugs again and verified they are at 0.040” as per my service manual ( 82 and later, 4.5 hp and larger gap is 0.040”.
My two pics i posted previously had to be cropped to meet the file size requirement. Possibly this is why the gaps appear quite large in those pics.
My plugs are Champion QL77JC4. They are 4 years old.
 
Check your ignition system.----Motor is likely running on 1 cylinder.----Yes , I know that sparkplug gap is less than 0.040"
 
Racerone, i need to apologize to you. I totally misunderstood your comment on the spark jumping a 3/8” gap. I was doing further internet searching and saw that a legit test on these CD ignitions is a 3/8” gap spark jump test. I will try that test tomorrow before i do any other troubleshooting. Again sorry for any confusion my previous response caused…
 
455hota said:
Racerone, i need to apologize to you. I totally misunderstood your comment on the spark jumping a 3/8” gap. I was doing further internet searching and saw that a legit test on these CD ignitions is a 3/8” gap spark jump test. I will try that test tomorrow before i do any other troubleshooting. Again sorry for any confusion my previous response caused…
Click to expand...
An air gap spark tester is what you need to determine if you have good spark on each cylinder. The one pictured below is available at almost every auto parts store or online or you can make a homemade version with a board and some nails. Either method works. Search for Joe Reeves spark tester on this site. Joe was a Johnson/Evinrude certified technician for many decades and a long time member of this forum. He posted many times the instructions for making a homemade tester.

1750162714948.png
 
I received my new parts (ignition coils, spark plug wires, and CDII module).
I noticed the coils need to be grounded as per the wiring diagram. The upper mounting bolt should connect the external ground strap of the coil to the side of the engine (ground).
However after reviewing my pics prior to disassembly, i see there are two fiber washers on each coil , preventing the external ground straps on the coils from contacting the ground of the engine housing.
I have attached a pic.
IMG_1273.jpeg


I think these fiber washers need to be removed, so the coils can be grounded.

I bought this boat and engine combo in 2020. The engine ran fine (?), until last fall 2024.

I dont see how i was getting spark before with out the ignition coils being grounded.

I must be missing something... Steve
 
The star washer and the bolt head bite into the ground strap on the coil and provide connection to the block through the bolt.
 
Kevinj, i completely agree with your statement. But in my case the fiber washer (non conductive), stops the star washer and bolt from contacting the strap on the coil. I believe i need to remove the fiber washers so the coils can be grounded.
I dont see how i had spark previously???
 
Hello, I have an update:

- new power pac installed, made sure to ground the black wire to the engine, also made sure the two mounting bolts had the fiber washers installed up against the pac module to help heat isolation.
- new coils installed, made sure to use the fiber washers to provide heat insulation of the coils to the engine, but made sure the upper bolt grounded to the metal coil tabs.
- installed new spark plug wires.
- spark plugs are Champion L77JC4’s. These are 4 years old.
- Used my new air gap spark tester and i have great sparks jumping a 3/8”gap!!!

Engine cranks over but does not start. Not trying to fire off.

Spark plugs held to engine sparks just fine.

Fuel is on the plugs, but i dont think its fouled.

Verified fuel pump is pumping, fuel is getting to prime solenoid.

I am stuck. I cleaned the plugs with brake cleaner, them burned them off with a butane torch. Still no luck.

Could the plugs still be the problem??
 
further updates:

(1) new spark plugs installed: no start.

(2) made sure the kill switch was properly attached up by the throttle box: at first crank it seemed to cough, but nothing after that, so start.

(3) removed carb, reviewed my rebuild, found nothing glaringly wrong. float moving freely, needle and seat opening and closing, suck test verified needle seat properly. float bowl clean: no start.

(4) drained float bowl, added fresh mixed gas from another tank: no start.

(5) again verified great spark with air gap spark tester: no start.

(6) sprayed starter fluid directly into carb throat (lots): no start.

My head hurts....any fresh ideas?
 
A little bit more diagnosis has taken place:

(1) verified spark again, nice big blue spark.

(2) with dead man clip removed i have mo spark, so this circuit is operational.

(3) i got a plastic squeeze bottle and filled it with fresh mixed fuel. I opened the carb butterfly and squirted in the fuel, to get some right up against the reed valves. I even pulled each plug and gave a healthy squirt in each cylinder. Put the plugs back in, and tried to start. NOTHING! Not even a bark off, or an attempt to fire. If i had a bark, then the conclusion would be a carb issue. But no bark.

I will again verify compression, but it was around 120-125 psi both cylinders.

I have two more theories:

(1) reed valves are not working

(2) timing /synchronization is not adjusted correctly.

These two items are new to me on this outboard. I would live to talk with a experienced person regarding these two items.

Please let me know.

... Steve
 
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