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BF225 shut down every 40 seconds. Help!

T

TDL

Member
2013 BF225
I launched my boat three weeks ago, she ran fine for two weekends until I refueled at my marina last Sat. As soon as I left the fuel dock, port engine died at idle speed, it fired up right back, but than died after 40 seconds. The last 5 seconds of running was very rough, shaking like crazy. Returned to my slip and changed out LP filter, emptied out fuel separator under the cowl, Racor is brand new; it still died every 40 second at idle, would die quicker if I added a little gas so I though the lift pump was gone. The next day I replaced the lift pump I pulled out from my older engine, motor ran smooth at idle for like five minutes, but as soon as I put it into gear, it died, and returned to every 40 seconds die out…everytime it fires right up though. I then noticed the LP filter bowl got sucked dry. So I thought it would be air leak or fuel restriction, went home, ordered new fuel lines, fuel bulb in hope to solve the problem.

Today I replaced them all, again, initially it ran fine at idle for 3 minutes until I added the load, then the 40 seconds thing came back. I then connected a clear fuel line from a portable tank to the “out” hose after the LP filter, so it is supposed to feed the lift pump directly. Started the motor, it took a little longer to fire up, I could see gas moving up inside the hose, so I guess the lift pump is working. However, it still dies out between 40 to 45 second. The only difference was it ran smoothly until it shut itself down just like the key was turned off. I really don’t know what to do next. Testing fuel pressure? Clean up the VST? There is only one Honda mechanic near by and he is always fully booked up. May not see him for two months….

Anyone had experienced the same thing? Any thoughts!
 
Sounds like multiple issues. New or not, drain the Racor F/W separator and see if any water comes out.

The LP fuel filter bowl should not ever run dry, especially at idle. It's possible that when you fueled up the last time, debris was knocked loose in the fuel tank and clogged up the pick-up screen inside the tank. Pull it and clean it.

Next, I would drain the VST, run it until it dies, and drain again, looking for any water in the fuel. It is possible that the water jacket on the VST has corroded and opened a hole in the VST chamber, allowing water to get in.

That's my top-of-mind at the moment.
 
chawk_man said:
Sounds like multiple issues. New or not, drain the Racor F/W separator and see if any water comes out.

The LP fuel filter bowl should not ever run dry, especially at idle. It's possible that when you fueled up the last time, debris was knocked loose in the fuel tank and clogged up the pick-up screen inside the tank. Pull it and clean it.

Next, I would drain the VST, run it until it dies, and drain again, looking for any water in the fuel. It is possible that the water jacket on the VST has corroded and opened a hole in the VST chamber, allowing water to get in.

That's my top-of-mind at the moment.
Click to expand...
Thanks a lot. I also suspect VST issue, I did drain the VST a few times before I tried the remote tank test. I could not tell if there was water in the fuel at that time. Never thought about water leak into VST but now you mentioned it, it does make sense. As I noticed, it ran for 3 minutes or longer at initial start but only ran 40 seconds after first stall. It might due to engine did not reach working temperature so no cooling to VST for the first few minutes. I would need a haul out to check the VST… hope it is cause!!
 
Also. Will high fuel pressure stall the engine? I kind of suspecting it has very high fuel pressure inside the fuel lines because when the motor about to shut off, the fuel bulb is very firm and I could not squeeze any fuel into the LP bowl; and when I loosened the three screws to check the LP filter, I could see the fuel/air shooting out though the seal.
 
OK. This is somewhat of a head-scratcher. Using the portable fuel tank narrowed the issue to something going on between the LP fuel pump and the injectors. So, that leaves the fuel-shutoff valve, the VST, the HP fuel filter, the HP fuel pump, and the fuel pressure regulator, if my memory is still good.

The fuel shutoff valve (solenoid) is normally closed and only opens at start up (for 4 seconds) and when the engine is shut down and the ECU detects 140 F or higher under the cowling, which opens the valve and allows fuel vapor to escape into the VST in order to prevent vapor lock in the low-pressure fuel lines. I'm not sure what happens if it gets stuck open. Try bypassing it to test if that may be your issue.

Although the HP fuel filter and the fuel screen on the bottom of the HP fuel pump housing are the source of many performance issues on the BF 225, it doesn't force a complete shutdown, so I doubt if that is your problem.

Fuel pressure to the injectors starts with the high-pressure fuel pump which pushes pressurized fuel to the fuel pressure regulator, which, in turn, feeds the injectors. The fuel pressure regulator operates on variations in vacuum. To test it, connect a fuel pressure gauge to the opening for the fuel pressure relief bolt on top of the high-pressure fuel filter cover. You will need a 6 mm adaptor. Disconnect the vacuum line from the fuel pressure regulator and plug it or pinch it closed. When you turn on the key switch, you should see an initial jump in fuel pressure, and then at idle, fuel pressure should read between 41 and 48 PSI. Let the engine shut down on its own and see if you are still reading fuel pressure. If not, then the HP fuel pump may be failing, or the ECU is shutting it down for some reason.

If none of the above pinpoints the problem, then the VST is the only other possible culprit. And within the VST, the float valve getting stuck closed would be the first place to look, IMO.

Hope this helps.

DISCLAIMER! I am not a marine mechanic. I'm just an owner of a 2007 BF 225 who tries to do all of my own maintenance and repair.
 
Thanks again, your knowledge on BF225 is incredible! I did replace one vat tank many years ago on another BF225, later the timing belt on that motor skipped a little so the cylinders are trashed. I did pull out all the pumps , valves and lines from that motor for spared parts. I will dig out the VST and take a close look on the diagram to figure out how the fuel is circulating. Since the first start of the day would run longer, I also suspect one of the vent/relief valves was clogged. Need to learn how check fuel pressure for sure.
 
Roger that. What has me scratching my head is that all of this started with a fill up at your local marina. Yet, the normal culprits (clogged vent, clogged fuel pick up, failed check valve in the primer bulb, clogged Racor, air getting into the fuel line, pinched fuel line where it enters the motor cowling) were eliminated by running on an auxiliary fuel tank straight into the LP fuel pump.

Anyway, keep us posted on what you find.
 
Problem solved! It did result from VST. I dug out my spared VST yesterday and studied how it works, and I think like Chawk-man said, the float might be stuck so lift pump can’t feed the VST. However, if stuck float is the only problem, my engine should starts but immediately shut down because the tank should be empty by now. So my theory is that the float is partially stuck to allow small amount of fuel to pass through and one of the fuel passage/ vent valve is gum up so motor would run a while until the imbalance between vacuum and fuel pressure that cuts the fuel (filter bowl went empty but the bulb was firm). Today the first thing I did was to drain VST completely, also drained the Recor and found some nasty orange stuff, then used a long steel rod to knock the VST a couple of times. I connected a remote tank directly to the lift pump with about 1gal of gas and a good amount of Sea Form. Started the engine and it ran 25 mins without a hiccup. Shut it off, checked and reconnected the fuel line and let it ran for 5 mins, untied the lines and headed out to the bay. ran 30 mins between idle and 4200 rpm without an issue. So I think the problem is solved.
However, I tried to drain the Racor while I was backwashing my motors in my slip. Surprisingly the bowl is completely dry. I looked up online and people said the fuel line needs to be bleed after draining the Rocor that I did not. So most likely my port engine was sucking fuel from my starboard fuel tank through the bridge. So the dirty fuel in my port tank is still problematic. At that time I was overheated (close to 100 degree!) and needed to head home…will check the fuel line next time and see if I need to dump all the fuel (around 35 to 40 gal). Hopefully not!
 
You wrote: "However, if stuck float is the only problem, my engine should start but immediately shut down because the tank should be empty by now." Not correct. If the VST managed to fill back up in the interim, then you would get about 40 seconds of run time before empty again. I should have picked up on that earlier. So, I suspect what was happening was that with the VST empty, the float dropped down, and when the fuel pump was activated, the VST filled back up, but the float valve was sticking closed, so there is where your 40 seconds of run time was coming from.

So, I also suspect that the Sea Foam dissolved or dislodged whatever was causing the float valve to stick closed. Don't be surprised if it happens again without a complete disassembly and cleaning of the VST.

As for draining one of your fuel tanks - get either a manual pump suitable for pumping gasoline, or buy an aftermarket 12 V external auto fuel pump (which I use.) Connect the input (draw) side to a long plastic hose. Lift your boat, and play with the lift motors to get the boat in a catawamped position - bow up and one side higher than the other. (I use a short piece of steel pipe in the cable spool to get this effect.) Let it sit that way for several hours. Then access the fuel tank through either the fuel-level sender hatch or the fuel line pickup hatch, snake the hose from the pump into the lowest corner of the fuel tank and pump out 3 or 4 gallons into a clean, clear container. Let it sit and settle out and see what you get. I depending onou will get a considerable amount of water and some amount of debris. The gas that stays on top can be siphoned off and reused. I do this about every 2 to 3 years depending on how many times I am refueling. There is always some water and debris from condensation and lousy fuel storage tanks at the typical marina.
 
chawk_man said:
You wrote: "However, if stuck float is the only problem, my engine should start but immediately shut down because the tank should be empty by now." Not correct. If the VST managed to fill back up in the interim, then you would get about 40 seconds of run time before empty again. I should have picked up on that earlier. So, I suspect what was happening was that with the VST empty, the float dropped down, and when the fuel pump was activated, the VST filled back up, but the float valve was sticking closed, so there is where your 40 seconds of run time was coming from.

So, I also suspect that the Sea Foam dissolved or dislodged whatever was causing the float valve to stick closed. Don't be surprised if it happens again without a complete disassembly and cleaning of the VST.

As for draining one of your fuel tanks - get either a manual pump suitable for pumping gasoline, or buy an aftermarket 12 V external auto fuel pump (which I use.) Connect the input (draw) side to a long plastic hose. Lift your boat, and play with the lift motors to get the boat in a catawamped position - bow up and one side higher than the other. (I use a short piece of steel pipe in the cable spool to get this effect.) Let it sit that way for several hours. Then access the fuel tank through either the fuel-level sender hatch or the fuel line pickup hatch, snake the hose from the pump into the lowest corner of the fuel tank and pump out 3 or 4 gallons into a clean, clear container. Let it sit and settle out and see what you get. I depending onou will get a considerable amount of water and some amount of debris. The gas that stays on top can be siphoned off and reused. I do this about every 2 to 3 years depending on how many times I am refueling. There is always some water and debris from condensation and lousy fuel storage tanks at the typical marina.
Click to expand...
I think you nailed the issue. I would need a haul out in order to work on the tank or the VST and it is on the list. I will bleed the fuel line first the coming weekend and see what comes out of the Recor. It’s hard to work on boat when your slip is 55 miles away from home….
 
The trouble continues….
On June 29, went out with my son on an off-shore fishing trip. That motor never missed a bit over three hours, ran up to 5500 rpm at 40mph. The following Sat I had family friends joined us for sandbar hopping in the bay, 4 kids and 8 adults on board, boat started to bogging down over 3200 rpm. I thought maybe the bad fuel from the tank clogged up the engine again. So went back to my marina on July 13, flushed the fuel system with a bit more Seafoam in a protable tank, but this time it would not work. Sea trail only allowed 2000 rpm this time. On July 20, replaced every filter again, and then flushed with Seafoam but only see bogging down over 1200rom. Finally called the marina for a haul out. Rebuilt the whole VST tank on the 27th. The fuel screen under the HP pump was 80% blocked by gum (be careful in Seafoam), however, the old problem came back, only ran 40 seconds exactly the same ans original issue.
Went back to marina with spare parts from my donor motor yesterday. I had swapped out fuel cut off solenoid, fuel rails, fuel injectors, fuel pressure regulator and even ECM, not thing worked. Engine would run for about 2 to 3 mins when it’s cold, and once the pee hold shooting water out, engine would stall after 40 second after restarting. After hours of testing, I found out there was no fuel in the fuel rails after engine stalled. So bascially the Hp pump won’t prime the fuel rail after the engine reach working temperature, I did not see overheat alert so I really don’t know what happened.
A friend who is a very good car mechanic told me that I might have a vacuum problem, but I look at the shop manual, the only vacuum line on the high speed side is on fuel regulator at the very top end of the fuel rail. The fuel return line is dry so I don’t think fuel Regulator was drawing the fuel away. I thought maybe there was a fault code stored in the ECM so it won’t allow the fuel system to prime, but I had swapped ECM back and forth and still the same results.
I am thinking it is an electric problem on HP fuel pump that only powers it up for 2 seconds while turning ignition switch; primes the fuel rails so it fires right up everytime. I don’t think PGM-FI relay is bad. Maybe some sensors blocking the power to fuel pump. Or bad battery connections? I am pulling my hairs!!
 
Bummer!

Double check your fuses - full continuity check across the spades of each fuse.

I've never personally had to get into the fuel pressure regulator, but I seem to recall quite a while back someone posting that there is (yet another) a fuel screen inside it. If true, and the screen at the bottom of the fuel pump holder was clogged, the screen in the regulator could also be clogged. I seem to recall that their solution was to remove it and clean it thoroughly with carb cleaner. Straight Sea Foam would also likely work.

Also, there is a fuel screen on the port side fuel pipe for fuel going into the injectors. See part #4 at:
 
I had installed spare fuel rails, injectors and fuel regulator so now I think the problem is ECM stops HP pump from priming the fuel rails because overheat. Like I said, engine would run over 3 minutes when it is cold but only 40 sec when it was hot. I also had flushed the engine a few time after it shut off, and the. It would run over 1 minute and half, but only 20 to 40 sec after the first stall. I also have port side motor MIL malfunction recently. oil (green) light is on, but overheat, battery and chk engine light won’t lite up when key is on. I think it’s #2 fuse problem. The buzzer rusted out and I disconnected it and never replace it. I found Honda 75 and 90 HP service manual states that after the overheat light comes up, the engine will shut down itself at around 20 second. I am thinking maybe 225 also has this safety feature.
I already ordered a impeller kit and will repair the water pump, and will borrow the big water tank from my marina to see if engine will keep running in the tank.
 
With alarm not working and most of your console indicator lights not working, you are courting disaster. You need to get those back in working order ASAP if you want to keep that engine alive.

There is a 7.5 amp fuse in your wiring harness at the console. Check that too.

On the BF 225, when overheat is detected for 20 seconds, the engine will shut down and will not restart until block temperature comes back to spec. This is a key safety feature, because an overheated state will destroy an aluminum block engine very quickly.
 
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