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2004 90 eltpo charging problems. New rectifier already installed...

N

N.C.-DEERHUNTER

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Nembie got a question. Ive been looking for a couple hours for a possible answer but all answers lead to a regulator/rectifier. I have a 2004 ELTPO 90 2 stroke Merc, Serial number 0t956989 that is not charging. It has been like this for a while. I noticed last summer that my tach had quit working and soon after the battery gauge was below or right at 12 all the time. Well this year I became concerned because last week after running lights for a while I noticed when I started it up the battery gauge was way down to around 10. I pulled the cowl off the next day and found burnt wires going to the regulator. The two yellow wires coming from underneath the flywheel were burnt and also the two yellow ones at the regualtor were also burnt. The green with a white tracer going undeneath flywheel has also been hot. I replaced the regulator and made sure my connections were tight at the battery. Then replaced the burnt connectors and still will not charge. Do you guys think it's the stator? The engine runs fine; just not charging. No missing or hesitation or anything. I tried to upload a couple photos for you guys to see but it kept giving me an error. Thanks for reading and any help I can get...
 
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Ok. Got them. Just had to resize them a little...
 

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Turn the rectifier/regulator over as solid back needs to go to engine...the sealed front may not be touching and result is missing case ground..
 
The other thing the alum part of the assembly does is heat sinks to the metal plate to which it is mounted so to do that obviously it has to be turned around where it can connect. Your old one should have been attached that way! Heat sinking keeps the electronics cool and improves life.

Mark
 
Texasmark said:
The other thing the alum part of the assembly does is heat sinks to the metal plate to which it is mounted so to do that obviously it has to be turned around where it can connect. Your old one should have been attached that way! Heat sinking keeps the electronics cool and improves life.

Mark
Click to expand...

Thanks Mark for helping me first off. And second I turned it around like you said and still no charge. Is there a way to check the stator for output to the regulator and if so how to? Thanks
 
N.C.-DEERHUNTER said:
Thanks Mark for helping me first off. And second I turned it around like you said and still no charge. Is there a way to check the stator for output to the regulator and if so how to? Thanks
Click to expand...

My 90 has the 16 amp red stator. Test for that per the manual: Between 2 yellow leads coming out from under the flywheel and going to the module....disconnect one wire or both and using a multimeter on the OHMs lowest resistance scale measure the resistance of the stator. Good is 0.16 to 0.19 depending on ambient temperature. As copper gets hotter the resistance increases...the reason for the variance. Any time you measure ohms you need to first determine your multimeter lead resistance. On the old analog meters you merely touch the leads together and using the ohms zero knob set the needle to zero ohms. Todays digital multimeters do not have that function. So you need to touch your leads together and get a reading of the resistance of the leads. My meter is 0.4 ohms. You need to add this to the reading in the manual. So for me it would be in the range of 0.56 to 0.59.

Then the next test is between either yellow lead and engine ground...the block, or where the neg battery terminal connects to the engine, you should have an open circuit meaning that a stator wire has not had the insulation chafed off and is touching ground.

To test the charging function you need an ammeter capable of reading 16 amperes and a 9v battery.

Remove the red sense wire from the starter solenoid terminal (12v distribution point and input to starter solenoid). It will be maybe a 16 awg wire and the smaller diameter of the two red wires.

Connect the + terminal of the 9v battery to this red lead and ground the - battery terminal.

Remove the larger red wire from the starter solenoid terminal, (coming from the regulator) and install the ammeter between it and the solenoid terminal where you removed that wire.....you want to measure the current from the regulator to the 12v distribution point, aka feed point for charging current back to the battery. To do that the ammeter has to be in series with this output wire. + ammeter lead will be on the regl wire and - terminal will be on the starter solenoid terminal.

Crank the engine....(don't forget to turn on the water hose) and run up to 2000 rpms. If you are getting 16 amperes at that rpm the system is good. If not, having performed the stator ohm test to verify that the stator is ok, it says the regulator module is bad.

HTH,
Mark
 
guyjg said:
Did you use heatsink compound on back of the rectifier/regulator? It helps dissipate heat and quickly.
http://www.cdielectronics.com/support/ Stator charge coils may be dead.
Click to expand...

As a matter of fact I did. My background includes electronics. We always used compound or custom fitting thermal gaskets between sinks and solid state components. I was surprised to find that on my engine, Mercury designers decided that compound was not necessary between this module and the plate so none was there. But I always used it, I had it on hand, and applied it. Apparently the losses in the module are low and just direct contact with the plate is adequate.......save a process, save a buck.

Mark
 
Texasmark said:
My 90 has the 16 amp red stator. Test for that per the manual: Between 2 yellow leads coming out from under the flywheel and going to the module....disconnect one wire or both and using a multimeter on the OHMs lowest resistance scale measure the resistance of the stator. Good is 0.16 to 0.19 depending on ambient temperature. As copper gets hotter the resistance increases...the reason for the variance. Any time you measure ohms you need to first determine your multimeter lead resistance. On the old analog meters you merely touch the leads together and using the ohms zero knob set the needle to zero ohms. Todays digital multimeters do not have that function. So you need to touch your leads together and get a reading of the resistance of the leads. My meter is 0.4 ohms. You need to add this to the reading in the manual. So for me it would be in the range of 0.56 to 0.59.

Then the next test is between either yellow lead and engine ground...the block, or where the neg battery terminal connects to the engine, you should have an open circuit meaning that a stator wire has not had the insulation chafed off and is touching ground.

To test the charging function you need an ammeter capable of reading 16 amperes and a 9v battery.

Remove the red sense wire from the starter solenoid terminal (12v distribution point and input to starter solenoid). It will be maybe a 16 awg wire and the smaller diameter of the two red wires.

Connect the + terminal of the 9v battery to this red lead and ground the - battery terminal.

Remove the larger red wire from the starter solenoid terminal, (coming from the regulator) and install the ammeter between it and the solenoid terminal where you removed that wire.....you want to measure the current from the regulator to the 12v distribution point, aka feed point for charging current back to the battery. To do that the ammeter has to be in series with this output wire. + ammeter lead will be on the regl wire and - terminal will be on the starter solenoid terminal.

Crank the engine....(don't forget to turn on the water hose) and run up to 2000 rpms. If you are getting 16 amperes at that rpm the system is good. If not, having performed the stator ohm test to verify that the stator is ok, it says the regulator module is bad.

HTH,
Mark
Click to expand...

Thanks Mark, I assume the charging side and the ignition side is seperate within the stator. I checked the 2 yellow wires that come out under the flywheel for ohms. There are no ohms. I check the resistance of my leads and they start out at 4 and then drop to 3. But when I check the yellow wires, either side to ground they start out at 4 then drop to 3. and I mean 0.04 then to 0.03. It's 0 all the way across each ohms setting on my meter like the charging side of the stator is shorted to ground. When I check between the 2 yellow wires it is also 0.03. So I would think I have shorted stator.
 
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I'm not quite sure what you mean by "no ohms" (no continuity???).

If you have effectively "zero" resistance (or very minimal resistance) that means that the coils (bobbins) are totally intact and should be functioning properly. If they were toast you would a ton of resistance (no circuit at all - no continuity).

Between either yellow lead and engine ground you should have no continuity - since you are showing minimal resistance I suspect you have melted your charge coils. If that's the case you will have to replace the stator (it's a whole unit even though it's actually two different, separate systems (charge and ignition)).

You will need to pull the flywheel and get a look.

How could this happen?

On these charging systems the power has to go somewhere or it will fry the stator. So it either is sent to an isolation strip which simply grounds it to the engine block OR it goes to a rectifier OR it goes to a regulator.

The regulator has the ability to send excess power to ground, a rectifier (such as on your model) does not have that ability. If no battery is connected to a rectifier when the motor is running, the power will "back up".

So, either of these situations could have caused a fried stator -

1) Running the motor with no battery (or a bad connection to the battery) will cause power to back-up and fry the regulator which then in turn fries the stator.

2) The voltage regulator could have fried on it's own which in turn caused the stator to fry.
 
That's what I meant is no resistance. Will I see damage when I remove the flywheel? What should I look for. I did find a loose negative battery cable end. I guess that's why I found those melted yellow wires. Called over load! LOL. I will pull the flywheel tomorrow and take a looksee.
galamb said:
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "no ohms" (no continuity???).

If you have effectively "zero" resistance (or very minimal resistance) that means that the coils (bobbins) are totally intact and should be functioning properly. If they were toast you would a ton of resistance (no circuit at all - no continuity).

Between either yellow lead and engine ground you should have no continuity - since you are showing minimal resistance I suspect you have melted your charge coils. If that's the case you will have to replace the stator (it's a whole unit even though it's actually two different, separate systems (charge and ignition)).

You will need to pull the flywheel and get a look.

How could this happen?

On these charging systems the power has to go somewhere or it will fry the stator. So it either is sent to an isolation strip which simply grounds it to the engine block OR it goes to a rectifier OR it goes to a regulator.

The regulator has the ability to send excess power to ground, a rectifier (such as on your model) does not have that ability. If no battery is connected to a rectifier when the motor is running, the power will "back up".

So, either of these situations could have caused a fried stator -

1) Running the motor with no battery (or a bad connection to the battery) will cause power to back-up and fry the regulator which then in turn fries the stator.

2) The voltage regulator could have fried on it's own which in turn caused the stator to fry.
Click to expand...
 
No telling what you'll find under the flywheel. I never looked at a stator, but an induction pickup is normally a soft iron laminated core with varnished (brown film looking insulation....looks like and is varnish just like you use in painting, but electrical grade) wires wrapped around it. The yellow wires that route to your regulator will be soldered to the varnished wires and will be secured with tape or something to keep any mechanical stresses (someone pulling on the wires) off the soldered junction. There will be a magnet or magnets on the flywheel and when these magnets pass by the iron core they will induce voltage in it and generate the power that recharges your battery just like your triggers are generated by your trigger coil(s).

With the readings you gave us it seems that the whole thing is shorted out; winding to winding and winding(s) to ground. Doesn't matter. If you fail either test your stator failed and you need a new one. Ensure you get the right part number and color as there are several stators from 9 thru 16 amps for that engine.

While you are tightening your ground wire, why not just remove it and the battery input wire and clean up both connections and then reattach them nice and tight. Then go to the battery, remove the cables there and do the same thing....clean and brite and tight.

After you get your new stator, you could still have a bad rectifier, so perform the 9v battery test I mentioned and ensure that at 2000 rpm you are getting 16 amps....with a red stator. Before you hook up your multimeter on amps, ensure that the amp scale will cover 16 amps. There are wires and things inside your meter and if you put more amps through it than it is rated for you will burn that up too. Usually the meter will indicate the limit of its special amp jack. Amps are not protected on digital multimeters like the other functions so you can't afford to get things hooked up wrong.
I have several meters and the one in the house is the smallest. It is stamped 10A max so it wouldn't work for you. On operating on the amps scale, remove your red lead from your V-OHM-MA jack and plug it into the high current amps jack. Leave the black ground lead where it is on the meter. Ensure that you put the range selector on the special high current amps range.
Then connect the tips of the red and black leads where I told you between your rectifer output and engine ground and light it off.....remember the water hose for engine cooling!

Mark
 
OK, here's the deal. I removed the flywheel and found nothing that would indicate any problem. So I get on the net again looking for stator output test. I seen where a tech said that with the 2 yellow wires disconnected take a meter and put it on AC volts. I did and started it up and it has 15 volt at idle. When I give it about 1/4 throttle it goes to 31 volts. So it seems that the stator is working. I did the ohms test on this new rectifier I bought and it is an open circut across the 2 yellow wires and across both yellow and red wires in either series. And also either red or yellow wire and case ground. All was open circut. So I will be getting a new rectifier.
 
The rectifier is probably a full wave bridge rectifier, 4 diodes connected in a diamond shape with the ac input between two and the dc output between the other two. You will read an open circuit on the ac input as there are two diodes across each wire back to back....the back to back stops you from getting continuity.

If the rectifier had no regulator you could position your leads across the output and ground and depending upon which way you had them connected you could get continuity. The battery in the meter would have to have it's positive terminal on the circuit ground to forward bias the rectifier diodes across the output and get cuttent to flow....aka continuity. Some meters have the + connected to the red lead and others the black lead. Your's, being a 16 amp charging circuit is surely regulated as mine and the regulator is probably a series component between the bridge rectifier output and the dc output of the module with some sense electronics to tell it what to do. Therefore you can't ohm that either.

The voltage measurement is good. The variance of the voltage from idle to 1/4 throttle corresponds to the numbers I gave you with respect to current increasing from idle to 2000 rpm (for a data point). With the battery load connected the voltage will no longer go that high and your output should run around the upper 13v range to about 14.5 at the battery terminals with the battery fully charged. If not fully charged it will be lower as the rectifier supplies energy to it until it is charged and you will have the higher voltage.

After shutting the engine down from running the residual voltage on the battery will be high, 13+ volts, but within a day's time the electrolyte will establish equilibrium and it will settle down to a more normal voltage. At my house, 800' elevation and a 75 degree day I use 12.7v as my full charge soft spot.

So, in retrospect (I guess) one has to ask how is it a new reg/rect was bad? Now-a-days parts are very reliable and seldom do you get a bad unit, new out of the box from a reputable mfgr.

On your having a bad ground wire connection, that could have been the smoking gun. Having a bad ground is the worst kind of wiring problem as in that module are low voltage components (the regulator sense circuit) that need that ground reference. If it floats it subjects them to abnormal voltages and as "galamb" mentioned can result in a "fried" module.

Mark
 
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