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200 loss of power at WOT and vibration

M

murraybiomed

New member
After winter storage took 200 hp Honda out for a fishing trip. Started great. I started every month during off season. All services done in off season as well. Fuel was topped off and stabilized. This California so we have a moderate winter as well so no extreme temps and boat is garaged. On fishing trip I put engine into gear and noted a vibration/rumble from engine at idle. Out of gear no vibration. Ran up rpms in gear and loss of power w vibration. Couldn't generate more than 4200 rpms and vibrating badly. Got on plane using trim tabs and when on plane the engine still wouldn't get above 4400 rpms doing 20 mph (normally 5800 and 40 mph). Still noting vibration and engine very noisy. Took off plane and ran in gear at idle. Engine would vibrate be noisy for an interval and then quiet down and stop vibrating for an interval. It was like the engine was running through bad fuel or something. No specific time periods for the good operation or bad operation. But because the vibration/noise did go away for periods I was able to rule out lower unit/prop. I summarized that if prop or lower unit was cause of this noise and vibration it would stay the while in gear the entire time. Ran boat in trailer and to repair shop. I assumed it was fuel or spark. I drained fuel, changed filters, and filled with fresh mid grade. Told shop lead tech that this was done and gave description of issue. This is where it gets bad. Shop calls a week later and says #6 cylinder failed leak down test. States they believe a cylinder/ring/valve is the cause. Asked for permission to pull head and inspect. I agreed if this was their recommendation. A day later I stopped by to see the progress and valve cover was only thing off. They stated they looked into cylinder with a camera and thought cylinder is damaged. They said they were pulling head off later that day for visual. Another two days and no call back. I call and am told cylinder is good and they want to send head to machine shop to have valves inspected. I am confused why this needs to go to a separate shop but I agree. I go onsite four days later and head is still there. I look it over with them and they agree it looks fine. I then ask when they did leak down test what did they hear. They explained they heard leak and pressure was lost. I asked specifically where- crankcase, intake/exhaust valves. They said adjacent cylinders to #6. I asked what does a leak to the cylinders mean and they said it is normally a head gasket failure. I asked why then are you sending the head to a machine shop. They felt it was necessary to rule it out. I asked if they did a wet compression test and they said no. I asked why if that might help eliminate the valves/head from the equation. They didn't have an answer and just felt it was necessary to send the head out for inspection. I didn't press the issue as I am not a outboard engine mechanic and needed to give the shop my support/benefit of the doubt. However, I am concerned that a lot of energy, money, time is being spent on this issue. I don't know how a bad cylinder could cause the intermittent operation I experienced on the water. I thought I would run this by folks who have this experience and just put down what I am sure has happened and what is currently being done to resolve it. Any help will be really appreciated. I just want my engine back and to do some fishing. Thank you in advance!!! Adam
 
Sounds like you have little choice but to stick with that shop on this problem, since they are already so deep into it. But maybe you should consider an alternative. It sounds like they jumped into the engine without doing a proper diagnosis. If they are a Honda shop (and they should be) then they should have hooked up the Honda diagnostic computer to see what it had to say. That could have saved a lot of time and money. For example, a failing spark plug or two, or a failing coil or two may be the source of the problem. A failing spark plug and a failing coil will often fire perfectly fine at idle, but fail at higher speeds and pressure. When were the plugs last changed? (Personally, I'm not very tolerant of the type run around you're getting.)

If they pull the head, a possible head gasket failure would be immediately recognized. In my opinion, any decent mechanic should also be able to recognize a valve or cam problem even before the head is off, unless there is a burnt valve or a piston strike on the valve. Having said that, the only time I have heard of a major valve train problem with that type Honda engine is when the timing belt breaks or slips. Internally, it is a very solid engine with a huge track record on the automotive side. It is basically Honda's J35A3 engine which has been in their high end Acuras ad MDX minivans for many years.

If there was an issue with the head or valve train, it would not be unusual for them to send out the head to a specialty shop for testing and a rebuild.
 
Chawk_man. This is a Honda and Yamaha shop. I live in the state capital and this shop is one that I was recommended to. They have always maintained this engine and boat. I have never had doubts about their service. They did not mention any results from a computer diagnosis. When they call with the head inspection report I will ask about the computer diagnosis. The 100 hour service was done 8 months ago (50 hours) and the same shop completed it. They do all the service and I asked on that service to make sure the plugs were changed. It is my understanding that they were. I did not have access to the head gasket when I visited but they pointed to the head above that cylinder and said it looked like there was water intrusion there. I looked with them and saw no sign of water intrusion in that area or in the head itself. The valves did not look damaged nor did the pistons look like they were contacted by the valves. In the 3 cylinders I saw all looked undamaged as well as the underside of the head. I am concerned because when I asked basic questions they didn't seem to have answers. I hate to second guess my service provider. I am just getting nervous based on the time spent and seeing my engine in pieces. Thanks for your response. Please send any other thoughts that might be helpful. Adam
chawk_man said:
Sounds like you have little choice but to stick with that shop on this problem, since they are already so deep into it. But maybe you should consider an alternative. It sounds like they jumped into the engine without doing a proper diagnosis. If they are a Honda shop (and they should be) then they should have hooked up the Honda diagnostic computer to see what it had to say. That could have saved a lot of time and money. For example, a failing spark plug or two, or a failing coil or two may be the source of the problem. A failing spark plug and a failing coil will often fire perfectly fine at idle, but fail at higher speeds and pressure. When were the plugs last changed? (Personally, I'm not very tolerant of the type run around you're getting.)

If they pull the head, a possible head gasket failure would be immediately recognized. In my opinion, any decent mechanic should also be able to recognize a valve or cam problem even before the head is off, unless there is a burnt valve or a piston strike on the valve. Having said that, the only time I have heard of a major valve train problem with that type Honda engine is when the timing belt breaks or slips. Internally, it is a very solid engine with a huge track record on the automotive side. It is basically Honda's J35A3 engine which has been in their high end Acuras ad MDX minivans for many years.

If there was an issue with the head or valve train, it would not be unusual for them to send out the head to a specialty shop for testing and a rebuild.
Click to expand...
 
Okay - What year was the engine purchased? If the motor number is under BAGJ 1500325, or under BAHJ 1500023, then there is a service bulletin that discusses a problem with the exhaust tubes that allows water to intrude into cylinder #6. It is Honda Service Bulletin # 56. Ask the shop to check your motor for that problem. If you send me an e-mail at [email protected], I will return a copy of the service bulletin to you in Adobe. The fix is to replace the exhaust tubes with an upgraded design. Honda has a kit with all the parts to do the replacement. However, if motor has less than 100 hours on it, then I suspect it's a newer one and the SB does not apply.

Ask the shop if they have the Honda Diagnostic System (HDS) or Dr. Honda. That is a sophisticated diagnostic computer that plugs into the service connector, and gives you a very detailed readout of the motor, a runtime history, how it is currently performing, and any faults detected over time. If they do not have that system, find another shop, because these folks have not seen fit to invest in the proper diagnostic tools.

It is not likely they changed the plugs unless it's an old engine with few hours. Maintenance schedule says to change plugs every 400 hours. I change them ever 300 hours, and pull them every 100 hours for inspection and to grease the threads to prevent them from getting stuck in the head.

Just between you, me and the fence post, I suspect there is a high probability that you had a minor problem that has turned into a major cluster___, and you are going to end up paying the price. The problem is you will likely never know because the initial diagnostics were not performed, and the shop has to justify all the work they have done so far. Sorry to be so negative, but this seems to be getting pretty stinky, based on your description of the sequence of events.

Full disclosure - I'm not a marine mechanic, just the first time owner of a very expensive Honda 225 in which I have taken great interest in understanding and maintaining, since this is the first 4-stroke outboard I have ever owned. On the other hand, I've probably been through around 20 2-stroke outboards, and several inboards in my lifetime, so I find this huge change in technology immensly interesting.

HondaDude - Any observations? Or are you holding out to see what happens next?
 
Kind of holding out.

Using Dr. H may have helped them somewhat...but if #6 does have a problem, they could have isolated it #6, but they would still have to go through whether it was spark ( or spark plug), fuel (injector) or something physical with the cylinder or valves.

It is always easy to second guess, as we sit in front of our computers. They are there with the engine, but also getting bombarded with other customers coming in with their issues, to get their boats going for the holiday weekend.

I have an Evinrude, myself that I have let sit for a few days because of other fires. I knew I could not get the guy going for the weekend, so I got several others going instead.

I would have certainly made sure the timing marks all line up and I had things set up correctly for the leakdown test.

#6 is the hardest plug to change, since you have to remove the cowling to get to it. It is also the lowest and most susceptible to water intrusion.

Murray, you did not say what year your motor was. Is it still in warranty?

If you do not feel comfortable with what is going on, talk with the Service Manager, and see if you can get the straight story.

Try not to be too aggressive....being nice but concerned (because of what seems to be inconsistencies) goes a long way. Believe me, they want to get this fixed and gone as much as you want it back. Good Techs do care about the motors that they work on and it drives them crazy (as well as costing them time and money) if they can not fine the problem in an efficient and timely manner. Most will put more hours into it than what they charge you, if they have any conscience at all.

You can always call Honda Customer Relations, if you really feel unconfortable with what is going on and they will contact the dealer to investigate.

Mike
 
BAES110358 is the serial number. I am sorry I don't have the year. It can't be under warranty. The engine is at least 6 years old w 300 hours.

i am a service technician myself for medical devices. I know that these folks are doing their best. I know they want this motor fixed and to be proud that it works. I am afraid however that for some reason they didn't perform the diagnosis properly. I am prepared to wait for this to be resolved. My only hope is that in the end that it works properly and I am not ultimately responsible for a week and a half of service time.

For now, I am happy to have asked about this here. If a Honda bulletin addresses a #6 cylinder water intrusion issue I'd like it resolved while the engine is apart.

i do get the impression from the responses I have received that my shop may be going down the wrong path. I'm in tough spot here because I have spoken to the service manager through this whole process and he feels they are going the right direction. I plan to wait for the head to get back from their machine shop and see what they report.

when they call I will ask about the Honda diagnostics that were done, if any. I will ask about the service bulletin 56. At that point I should be given an estimate. At present the engine has been there two weeks with no estimate.

Thanks gentlemen for all your thoughts!

adam


hondadude said:
Kind of holding out.

Using Dr. H may have helped them somewhat...but if #6 does have a problem, they could have isolated it #6, but they would still have to go through whether it was spark ( or spark plug), fuel (injector) or something physical with the cylinder or valves.

It is always easy to second guess, as we sit in front of our computers. They are there with the engine, but also getting bombarded with other customers coming in with their issues, to get their boats going for the holiday weekend.

I have an Evinrude, myself that I have let sit for a few days because of other fires. I knew I could not get the guy going for the weekend, so I got several others going instead.

I would have certainly made sure the timing marks all line up and I had things set up correctly for the leakdown test.

#6 is the hardest plug to change, since you have to remove the cowling to get to it. It is also the lowest and most susceptible to water intrusion.

Murray, you did not say what year your motor was. Is it still in warranty?

If you do not feel comfortable with what is going on, talk with the Service Manager, and see if you can get the straight story.

Try not to be too aggressive....being nice but concerned (because of what seems to be inconsistencies) goes a long way. Believe me, they want to get this fixed and gone as much as you want it back. Good Techs do care about the motors that they work on and it drives them crazy (as well as costing them time and money) if they can not fine the problem in an efficient and timely manner. Most will put more hours into it than what they charge you, if they have any conscience at all.

You can always call Honda Customer Relations, if you really feel unconfortable with what is going on and they will contact the dealer to investigate.

Mike
Click to expand...
 
Thank you for your response. I answered some of what you asked in Hondadude's post reply. I did request the plugs to be changed earlier this year.

i think your thoughts on my situation are unfortunately right on the money.

Please let me know if that service bulletin pertains to my engine.

thanks again.


adam
 
I just wanted to give you a quick heads up on the estimate I just received. The head was inspected at the machine shop and they stated that a valve is bent. The quote to repair the engine was $1000. I approved the quote and will hope that the repair resolves the issue. I provided the shop the tech bulletin 56 and they stated it wasn't needed for my engine and not the cause of this failure/not needed. If I read the bulletin right it appears that my serial# is part of the engines affected. I have a week before the valve is due in and the head is repaired by the machine shop. If it is your understanding that my serial is effected (see yesterdays' reply below) can you please let me know that you too see it that way? I will insist this is resolved also since the engine is apart. Thanks again for your help. Sincerely. Adam Murray
chawk_man said:
Okay - What year was the engine purchased? If the motor number is under BAGJ 1500325, or under BAHJ 1500023, then there is a service bulletin that discusses a problem with the exhaust tubes that allows water to intrude into cylinder #6. It is Honda Service Bulletin # 56. Ask the shop to check your motor for that problem. If you send me an e-mail at [email protected], I will return a copy of the service bulletin to you in Adobe. The fix is to replace the exhaust tubes with an upgraded design. Honda has a kit with all the parts to do the replacement. However, if motor has less than 100 hours on it, then I suspect it's a newer one and the SB does not apply.

Ask the shop if they have the Honda Diagnostic System (HDS) or Dr. Honda. That is a sophisticated diagnostic computer that plugs into the service connector, and gives you a very detailed readout of the motor, a runtime history, how it is currently performing, and any faults detected over time. If they do not have that system, find another shop, because these folks have not seen fit to invest in the proper diagnostic tools.

It is not likely they changed the plugs unless it's an old engine with few hours. Maintenance schedule says to change plugs every 400 hours. I change them ever 300 hours, and pull them every 100 hours for inspection and to grease the threads to prevent them from getting stuck in the head.

Just between you, me and the fence post, I suspect there is a high probability that you had a minor problem that has turned into a major cluster___, and you are going to end up paying the price. The problem is you will likely never know because the initial diagnostics were not performed, and the shop has to justify all the work they have done so far. Sorry to be so negative, but this seems to be getting pretty stinky, based on your description of the sequence of events.

Full disclosure - I'm not a marine mechanic, just the first time owner of a very expensive Honda 225 in which I have taken great interest in understanding and maintaining, since this is the first 4-stroke outboard I have ever owned. On the other hand, I've probably been through around 20 2-stroke outboards, and several inboards in my lifetime, so I find this huge change in technology immensly interesting.

HondaDude - Any observations? Or are you holding out to see what happens next?
Click to expand...
 
Murray, I've just had a total system failure. Short answer, yes, have the exhaust tubes changed out. Why in the world would they say you didn't need that work done???
 
chawk_man I wanted to give you the final word on my repair. Quick review was shop said bad valve. Weren't sure which one they said (intake or exhaust). Sent to a "machine shop" who reported a bent valve. I asked how that could be and no answer was given. They wanted to get the valve replaced and then inspect the replaced/damaged valve themselves. I agreed to the repair and the machine shop did the work. One week later the head with new valve was back and installed. I was given a $1000 estimate. I asked for the plugs to be changed as well. When I picked up the boat the bill was $1250. The valve was there as well as the plugs. I inspected the valve and showed the shop the valve. It was not bent or damaged. Asked why it was changed they reported the shop said it was burnt. I asked how that could be and they thought fuel. I know valves don't burn up from fuel but I was sure I was done with this shop so I paid and left. The valve appears fine. Before I left the shop the shop manager stated it was difficult to get the #6 plug out. The plugs were in a bag with the valve. I inspected the only rusted plug #6 and noted that the anode was covered in a thick oily debris. All the other plugs were clean. I believe I may have had the entire left side of my engine disassembled for a bad plug. Or maybe the valve was burnt and due to lack of good combustion the plug was fouled. I don't know what ultimately happened. But I have a good looking valve with no signs of break down, an obviously fouled plug, and a $1250 bill. I did not have them do the SB your forwarded to me. The shop adamantly states it was not the cause of the issue and it is not needed. I found another shop 50 miles away that acts more competent. I plan to take it there in the off season and have the SB done. I just need to be done with the shop I started with. Thought I would give you the word so you can pass on this experience to anyone else with a similar situation. Thanks again for your insight. Adam Murray
chawk_man said:
Murray, I've just had a total system failure. Short answer, yes, have the exhaust tubes changed out. Why in the world would they say you didn't need that work done???
Click to expand...
 
Adam, Thanks for the update. Let us know how the engine performs when you get it back on the water.

The rusted and fouled plug in #6 is one of the problems caused by the old exhaust tubes. The water intrusion into #6 COULD have damage the valve. Read page 7 carefully in SB 56 on ways to mitigate the problem in the case were you will be using the boat this summer before the change out.

Not sure how you are fishing up that way, but if all possible keep you engine running while out on the water, especially in following seas. Even at idle, the exhaust pressure will prevent water intrusion up into the cylinder area. The next time you pull the boat, pull the plug on #6 and see how it looks.
 
"But because the vibration/noise did go away for periods"

I would say you had a problem with the valve. If the exhaust tube is bad getting sea water on the valve and the valve was hanging open the engine would not just have a loss of power but would make lots of noise. This would explain why it was intermittently happening.

Do the exhaust tubes. It's not a difficult job.
 
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