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BF225 - Tilt Motor Bogging Down / Quitting

brettmarl

brettmarl

Regular Contributor
Tilt mechanism started acting up, when lowering/raising - motor sounds weak like batteries are dead - struggles and sometimes quits (Batteries are strong). If I apply a little pressure to help it down / pull up then it behaves better. Then a few minutes later it goes up and down perfectly. Can't decide if it sounds more like a failing motor on its way out and I should just start with replacing that, or if it sounds like an electrical issue of getting intermittent power / weak voltage somehow. I have been unplugging/plugging the connectors more than usual lately to remove the upper cowl.

Video showing how rough it is:


[Unfortunately this is the same motor as I'm having oil leaking issues with - I think they are independent issues, but it is possible some of my leaking oil is hydraulic fluid vs. engine oil related to this.]
 
Hi,
Honestly, that motor sounds ok to me. It sounds more to my ear like it's being unduly loaded for some reason.
When did you last grease the tilt shaft zerks? Items 74 in link below

Honda Outboard 225HP OEM Parts Diagram for Stern Bracket + Swivel Case | Boats.net

Buy OEM Parts for Honda Outboard 225HP Stern Bracket + Swivel Case Diagram
www.boats.net www.boats.net

You should be able to easily check fluid and top off the reservoir if you trailer. Might be a bit tougher in the water though. Items 24 & 25 in link below.


Honda Outboard 225HP OEM Parts Diagram for POWER TRIM & TILT | Boats.net

Buy OEM Parts for Honda Outboard 225HP POWER TRIM & TILT Diagram
www.boats.net www.boats.net

I read your other post about oil leaking but chawk_man knows more about those 225's than I ever will. You might try adding some dye to the oil and checking with ultraviolet if you can't pinpoint the source. They sell leak detection kits at most big box auto parts stores.

Good luck.
 
jgmo said:
Hi,
Honestly, that motor sounds ok to me. It sounds more to my ear like it's being unduly loaded for some reason.
When did you last grease the tilt shaft zerks? Items 74 in link below

Honda Outboard 225HP OEM Parts Diagram for Stern Bracket + Swivel Case | Boats.net

Buy OEM Parts for Honda Outboard 225HP Stern Bracket + Swivel Case Diagram
www.boats.net www.boats.net

You should be able to easily check fluid and top off the reservoir if you trailer. Might be a bit tougher in the water though. Items 24 & 25 in link below.


Honda Outboard 225HP OEM Parts Diagram for POWER TRIM & TILT | Boats.net

Buy OEM Parts for Honda Outboard 225HP POWER TRIM & TILT Diagram
www.boats.net www.boats.net

I read your other post about oil leaking but chawk_man knows more about those 225's than I ever will. You might try adding some dye to the oil and checking with ultraviolet if you can't pinpoint the source. They sell leak detection kits at most big box auto parts stores.

Good luck.
Click to expand...

Thanks for reply!

I usually grease all the zerks every service (last was about 3 weeks ago). 99% sure I greased the tilt shaft ones - which is why I didn't even consider. Will take my grease gun down and hit them up next time I'm at boat just to be sure - and hopefully take a less windy video!

I did top off the hydro fluid last service when I had it on the trailer too. Given that it sometimes travels up and down fully on it's own - makes me think it has enough fluid, otherwise the total distance it could go up would be less right? To double-check - I'll get on a paddle board and check the fluid on the water. now that I think about it - my trailer parking spot isn't level (stern downhill) so it's possible this would allow me to underfill.
 
Yes, the video had some wind in it and I could be completely wrong about the motor being strong. I found out that water will intrude into those motor housings through the grommet where the wires enter. I got in the habit of applying a "sensor safe" gasket maker to the wires and grommet whenever I worked on or replaced one.

But checking for binding or obstructions of any kind was my first thought.
Have you hit anything with the outboard recently? Or, worse, any chance someone/something might have run into you?

Good luck.
 
Do what JGMO said - check fluid level and test it while level. Check for any leaks around cylinders. That could very well be the oil slick you saw. If you do need a new motor get back to me. The Honda T/T motors are very expensive. There are API equivalents that are much less expensive and work just as well. I had to replace mine over 10 years ago and used the API, and it's still working great.
 
greased the two tilt zerks again and saw fresh grease come out fast so pretty sure I had just greased them. Checked hydraulic and it was surprisingly low - took two 10ml (20ml total) syringes of fluid.

Didn’t seem to help though as motor still whining and bogging down. Way more windy today so no video.
 
Ah - jackpot. You guys are good!! … so I forgot to mention that I had serviced the seastar seals last service too. I guess I had cranked down the big nuts that hold the ram to the outboard and maybe that was putting too much squeezing pressure on the hinge. Backed them off and it goes up and down happily now.

Is it plausible that the straining motor unable to move would cause the pistons to purge fluid? That may very well have been my oil leak and the engine oil I’m finding inside is just a slow gasket leak….
 
Well, given that the ram bolts were over-tightened, putting considerable pressure on the ram seals, and that your T/T hydraulic fluid was low, I suspect that you are correct in believing that the sheen you are seeing on the water was hydraulic fluid.

Inspect those seals very closely. The problem is that once they leak, they will often continue to leak. But you may luck out and they re-seal with less pressure on them.
 
Further evidence to support the theory of hydraulic sheen is I checked other motor trim fluid and it only took a drop to fill it. topped up both on trailer a few weeks ago. All back together and heading for test drive. 30m at idle and no signs of engine oil under hood.

Will keep eye on seals for sure and put on the next replace list.
 
Update on this... first I'm convinced some of the sheen I saw is hydraulic. I can visibly see fluid escaping from the bigger upper ram when it's moving.

However - while backing off the starstar nuts helped tremendously - it's gone from not working at all to working most of the time, with random stops and bog downs.

Here is a video showing what it is like when it bogs down (with less wind). In this case it was just cutting out periodically on the uprise (does it at helm switch or motor switch - and sometimes works perfectly - sometimes barfs like this). Towards the end of the video as I'm getting into the bottom of the range - it starts of make the bogging down noise.


@chawk_man I might need a pointer to the 3rd party motor after all...
 
Getting my parts list together for rebuilding the seals.

Honda Outboard 225HP OEM Parts Diagram for POWER TRIM & TILT | Boats.net

Buy OEM Parts for Honda Outboard 225HP POWER TRIM & TILT Diagram
www.boats.net www.boats.net

I see that the Trim caps are available pre-built - or you can just order the seals (I'll go that route), however, the Tilt cap doesn't show individual seals and is only available as part #51 (entire rod) for $400. Is the tilt cap the same size as the trim caps - can I just order 3x the trim cap seals and assume they will work for the tilt?
 
I can't help you with the seals. I've never had to touch mine, even after over 2300 hours. However, when you do change them out, or replace the T/T motor, it takes a while to purge all of the air out of the T/T mechanism. You need to lower the motor, top off the fluid reservoir, then work the motor up and down several times. Let it sit. Then repeat that process several times until you cannot get any more fluid in the reservoir.

If you do need to change the T/T motor, I've attached the Honda - API cross reference table. It's probably the last one listed, but check against the proper Honda part number. If it is the last one, you will need to reverse the wires from from green to blue and blue to green to make it work properly with your T/T switches. The API motor is around $180. The new Honda motor is about $525.
 

Attachments

  • Tilt Trim Honda to API cross reference.pdf
    76.8 KB · Views: 4
Thanks @chawk_man - will keep that in my back pocket and bench test motor first. I noticed that the ram mechanism needs to pivot as things go up and down - and I've never dug into that or greased it before - so maybe it's binding on those hinges and motor might be OK. Will report back when I dig in after parts arrive.

For future reference for others looking to do this repair - here are the parts/tools I went with:


The seal kit hall the seals and uses Viton wipers which should be better than OEM - I hear nothing but great things about Viton seals on Seastar rams.

It also mentions this on their page:

"We also included the 5 O-rings in between the valve body and manifold, if your unit is giving you issues the valve body needs to come off and the 5 O rings need to be replaced. This was a flawed design put together by showa, (...) in a salt water application salt and corrosion builds between the flange and wedges it apart as well as oxidizing the O-ring grooves and forcing them to fail and fall out of place.

Will be nice to have these extra O-rings on hand - so I can tear down and inspect the valve body.
 
Additional note for others looking for parts some day...

The motor @chawk_man mentions in the PDF is presumably for an AK0/AK1 and is part number 36120-ZY3-013 which on boats.net shows superseded by 36120-ZY3-023.

However, my AK3 shows a different motor part number which is 36120-ZX2-013 ($30 more on boats.net). Possible Honda switched the wires for the AK3? ... as otherwise *looks* identical. Is API the OE supplier for the Honda part?
 
Yeah tried that - my part # didn't show on their website - so sent them an email to ask.

I was able to find your part number ($124) on and my part number ($252) on rareelectricals website, but it's just listed as an aftermarket part and I have no idea if it's API or not.

But it does suggest the motor has changed in some way. Confusing as the cheaper part does say "BF225 2002-2018" which if true - would include the AK3.
 
I suspect that the superseded part number has to do with the internals, and not the fit or function, but not entirely sure of that. I found this link that you might want to consider, given the cost....

 
Updating for future reference. API Part number is PT314NM that has honda style plug on the end. I have no idea if the leads still need to be swapped.
 
Yup. ordered one to have on standby if my discovery determines it’s motor vs binding elsewhere. Will report back if I install it.
 
Digging in on this... and documenting for someone who might experience similar in the future...

Once I disconnected engine from the tilt trim mechanism - the motor exhibited the same behavior (with no load) - bogging down and cutting out occasionally. Still could be a pump issue, so poked a little further... removed the motor from the pump - and when testing with the up-down buttons - the motor seemed to spin fine both ways (hard to tell with zero load on it) - but would run for 10s or so and then cut out - similar to when it was mounted. Pulled motor apart and put multimeter on terminals. Confirmed that at the motor I was getting 12.6v both ways of the switch - so appears I can rule electrical issue to motor and the motor itself is bad.

Need to inspect the motor a little more carefully - at first glance the brushes don't look that worn and there is a lot of black grease/graphite material inside the housing, but nothing obviously bad.
 
Cleaned up motor and greased spindles on armature (very dry) and put back together. quick unloaded test and it runs for a while now without cutting out. possible the bushes are towards end of life - i'll measure them tomorrow when it's light out. think i'm still going to plan to put in the new AP motor I have, but will be nice to have this one rebuilt for a spare.

while i'm encouraged that the motor isn't cutting out unloaded, i don't see how this would explain the fluid leak problem. seems unlikely that i had a failing motor and a hydraulic leak at the same time, so i still think something else is amiss...
 
Brushes are 8mm. Spec says 4.8 is min (9.8 New) so they look good to go.


Based on this article I suspect my dry spindles caused some contamination which led to some arcing - hence the cut outs.

dreisilker.com

DC Motors: Common Problems and Maintenance of Brushes | Dreisilker Electric Motors

Brushes are vital to the efficiency and uptime of your DC and brushed AC motors because they are the electrical connection between the power source and the commutator. To effectively and efficiently transmit the electricity, brushes must have full, flat contact with the commutator at all times...
dreisilker.com dreisilker.com

5D5D73DC-A848-47F2-A960-98AB377911C4.jpeg
 
Only other slightly weird thing worth mentioning is in the magnetic housing there is a bearing at the top that seems to be pivoting slightly by the time I take the armature out. I straighten this up for installation but wonder if it’s not meant to be moving at all and that is what has caused more friction.

94AD4CB8-957E-4FE7-9941-185C9879AE10.jpeg
 
Orings between the pump and rams were nasty. Rock hard and disfigured with plenty of salt crud. Glad I’m swapping these.


3258E703-8968-4F8C-94F1-A398A3265ACD.jpeg

A0604CEC-7BB6-42E0-9868-EDF32C7BB904.jpeg
 
The two pin wrenches from marine tech were useful. The trim caps came off with some force and no marring. The tilt cap was a different story - even with a 3ft bar it wouldn’t budge it all. Pins didn’t break on the tool - but the holes tore in the cap. I even had a chunk of pvc pipe slipped over the ram holding downward pressure on the wrench so pins would be as deep as possible.

I had to strip both the pump and the tank and apply a lot of heat to the tilt body. Even then - the soft aluminum cap just gave way. In the end I had to break it free with an air hammer and then use the pin wrench.

Honda only sells the cap as part of the whole piston assembly ($420!) - but five star marine sells the caps separately and claim them to be oem quality.

364C0B77-97A6-41A5-9920-A541A14E38EE.jpeg
 
My AP motor arrived. While it has a Honda plug it does appear that the blue green wires are switched as it spins the opposite side way to the Honda motor. Weird that they went to the effort of a sku with Honda plug …

Motors look very close. The Honda has more curved edges and some recessed slots in the base but otherwise dimensions are the same.

4E105E1F-B13C-4F52-9599-0CDA0FD54140.jpeg
 
^ I should add was easy enough to pull the spades out of the Honda plug and swap them over vs have to mess with redoing wires.
 
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