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Tune up using synthetic oil

diver_dave

diver_dave

Advanced Contributor
"James; You have high shear e

"James; You have high shear engines (older, like mine) and run cool. Note that today's automotive oils, including most synthetics, have less ZDDP than when crusader wrote your manual. The mineral vs synthetic is a non-factor with us, the factor is cam/lifter wear and the anti-wear additives. Today's auto oil is made for low shear engines, using roller cams and modern oil pumps. Our engines don't have those. ZDDP levels have reduced considerably with SM rated oils. You may find diesel rated oil with high levels of ZDDP, but you will also get very high detergent levels, not a huge issue, but not needed either for a gas engine. Boiling off all this data, I run a conventional SM rated straight 40 oil with a bottle and 1/2 of ZDDPlus on a 50 hour schedule. I would think for you in the PNW, a staight 30 is better. Again, a synthetic won't hurt, but you really need to know the ZDDP content. If the oil is SM rated, it is very likely a low ZDDP content. You can find non-SAE rated oils out there that are made for things like V twin motorcycles, antique cars, etc that MAY have high ZDDP levels. You can do your own cost analysis on those solutions."
 
"I should also mention the rea

"I should also mention the reason that today's oils have less anti-wear protection is that the car manufacturers are expected to provide a long term emissions solution, and they need, therefore, a long catalytic converter lifetime. Burning oil with zinc kills these converters, thus the push to remove it. Roller cams are one response to this issue. They are lower friction, PLUS they have lower shearing action. Shearing breaks down what little anti-wear protection is in the SM rated oil at the start. You can search and find some graphs on ZDDP in the crankcase vs engine hours."
 
"OK Dave, I got some specs out

"OK Dave, I got some specs out.
I don't understand, but I want to know how I'm doing.

What kind of "cam & lifter wear (um average)" are we looking for with the older / non roller engines, above or below ??? @ sequence IIIG or sequence IIIF

Or how about a figure for Shear Stability (ASTM D-6278)
% loss @ 30 passes ?%
% loss @ 90 passes ?.??%

Fred 156-M"
 
"Here is a view, from QuakerSt

"Here is a view, from QuakerState: http://www.hotrod.com/pitstop/hrdp_0702_pitstop_zinc_oil_additive/index.html

also: http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/flat_tappet_cam_tech/index.html

"The reduction first started in the mid-'80s, and it has been a gradualprocess, but the latest API SM and GF-4 specs have reduced ZDDP content to such an extent that the new oils may not provide adequate protectionfor older, flat-tappet-equipped vehicles running nonstock, performancecams and valvetrains. And it will only get worse; projected future oilspec revisions will likely reduce ZDDP content even more."

Mobile oil view:

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/AskMobil/Flat_Tappet_Engin es.aspx

"For older, flat tappet engines where wear may be more of a concern, we offer a number of oil products which are higher in phosphorus than API SM/ILSAC GF-4 oils. These include Mobil 1 15W-50, Mobil 1 Extended Performance 15W-50 (1200 ppm phosphorus), Mobil 1 0W-40 (1,000 ppm) and Mobil 1 High Mileage 10W-30 and 10W-40 (1000 ppm). For all newer engines and flat tappet engines in normal service, API SM/ISLAC GF-4 oils are preferred for better fuel economy and for the protection of catalytic systems with lower phosphorous (800 ppm)."

Somewhere I did find the graph of ZDDP vs engine time. It may take a bit to refind it. Note that the "shear" issue is not the ASTM test for base stock viscosity (or other) change with shear, it's the physical/chemical decomp of the zinc/phosphorus anti-wear compounds with shear."
 
"For what it is worth, we star

"For what it is worth, we started using mobil1, full synthetic, 15W-40, back in 1987. Changed the filters every 100 hrs and emptied the crankcase once a year. Only got 3100 hours before we decided to rebuild them; machinist said they'd probably gone another 1500 hr with no problem."
 
"If you need to hear some NON

"If you need to hear some NON scientific BS ( I mean DATA) A friend of mine was a helicopter pilot at McGuire AFB here in NJ and they had done quite a bit of synthetic testing in some of the equipment there. He used synthetic oil in his 1990 Harley V-Twin for well over 100K miles before a tear down and after mic'ing every part, he put in new rings and seals...That was it! It impressed me a little...But, I've seen engines and transmissions from the 1930's that still look great also. 100K motorcycle miles is A LOT

OK I'm done"
 
"al:

good data point - yes,

"al:

good data point - yes, lots of rev's but i bet they were 'low-duty cycle' rev's, not like what a boat engine sees. My favorite OEM's field rep used to describe the load a 454 in a boat sees like this: Take the old biscayne wagon, loaded with the entire scout patrol and their gear - and they are towing the utilty (20') trailer with the rest of the troops gear - on the way to summer camp. The route is all uphill and they average 80 mph...and yes, it is the hottest day of the year.

Don't know how close it is to reality but can't be too far off."
 
"Great example! Poor boat eng

"Great example! Poor boat engines are always "going uphill". That's why there's damn little vacuum, and that vacuum advances are not used.

Jeff"
 
"Here's an example that I

"Here's an example that I like.
Jump into the family V8 powered road cruiser, fire it up , get out on the hwy, and mash on that accelerator pedal 80% of the way to the floor, & just try to hold it there.

Fred 156-M"
 
"Another good one!

Gotta te

"Another good one!

Gotta tell you 'bout my old Astre. This was the Pontiac version of the lamentable Vega, a car capable of rusting out on the showroom floor. It was also a dog with that aluminum cylinder walls 4 banger, so I dropped in a Buick V-6. Now it was a runner, but I had to get "creative".

At that time I was into shutting down cylinders to improve gas mileage, so I shut off the entire right bank of the motor (by pulling the push rods out). Now, the PLAN was to eventually make the rocker shaft adjustable from inside the cabin, so I could add or cut out those 3 cylinders at will. Meanwhile, I just ran it on three!

Talk abput a powerless pig, though it started and ran great. Gas mileage was about the same since it was floored half the time--especially driving home from work. I have this hill on I-78, see, and the car would not exceed 55 mph climbing it. I'd floor it a mile before the hill began and keep it there right to the top, all the while trying to dodge trucks or any one else who got in my way! Made for an interesting drive home every day! Often I "cleaned" the hill below 50 mph, always with the gas pedal all the way down.

So, Fred, it does happen!

Jeff"
 
"Regarding ZDDP --- I sent an

"Regarding ZDDP --- I sent an email to Blackstone Labs, where I had an oil analysis done last fall, inquiring about adding ZDDP to the oil and this is the reply. "This is an Internet rumor that has been seriously overblown. We have seen a slight reduction in the ZDDP levels in some oils, but it's not enough to affect anything, nor have we seen any damage to older engines because of it. There is no need to use any extra ZDDP additive in your oil."

Erich"
 
Now that is an intersting post

Now that is an intersting post as I BELIEVE.... that Blackstone has credibility. It was thru their oil analysis that I had been madly driven to my initial contact with MarineEngine.com and the likes of you all to help rebuild my engines.

A true milemarker in my lifes' pathway.
 
"There seems to be a major dis

"There seems to be a major disconnect if the oil manufacturers are saying ZDDP content has gone down significantly, still dropping, and Blackstone is not seeing this... Erich, who is your POC at Blackstone?"
 
"I went will full synthetic oi

"I went will full synthetic oil. I spoke to 3 local engine rebuilders and they all said it will be good for my engines. The hours I have are in the area were they would request that they use synthetic oil. They all said they use it in the break in for a new boat.
My tune up was great, you get to see lots of little things you would not if you had some else doing it. I got to clean up all the little things.
The boat runs great and the engines sound smoth.
All I need is a nice day in Seattle to get out and have fun."
 
"I did some more digging on th

"I did some more digging on the ZD(D)P concentration and found the following:

1) Business development types (the marketing departments) will exploit ANY opportunity {this must be mandatory training for those that run political campaigns but that's a different thread}.

2) I couldn't find anything suggesting a properly broken in engine would have any issues running a 'factory' valve train using SJ/SM oils.

3) from a practical view, I can't see any significant difference between the 'optimum' 1200 ppm and the current SM level of 800 ppm beyond break-in. If it brings piece of mind, spend a couple bucks for an additive when you change the oil.

4) I'll keep using the mobil 1 full synthetic until the boat is sold or the engines fail.

additional reading (best one stop link) here:
http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html"
 
"The "crisis" appears

"The "crisis" appears to be overblown--which one ain't? I dosed the motors wth a half quart each of ZDDP additive this winter, but I probably won't again.

Ask me next winter!

Jeff"
 
Twin 350 crusaders/Gm. I usual

Twin 350 crusaders/Gm. I usually use valvoline straight 40w with 1qt of Rislone in each engine to clean it up and keep things loose. Engines sat for 2 1/2 years before i bought the boat almost 3 years ago. Change the oil every 6months rain or shine.How is Castrol oil for marine use? Ive used it in all my cars (race car and passenger)for 30plus years and the stuff is great on cars. Ive had a marine mechanic tell me that it is not all petrolum based some paraffins and is not good in boats.Anybody use the Lucas oil additive?
 
No presure problems 40psi all

No presure problems 40psi all the time. What about Castrol's oil for marine use. Saltwater.
 
REGARDING LUCAS OIL STUFF: Is

REGARDING LUCAS OIL STUFF: Is that the stuff they use in the counter display with the gears and you turn the handle and see the film stick to the gears? Should it be added to the boat crankcase?
 
"Thanks Fred,

Being total

"Thanks Fred,

Being totally confused regarding the oils, their stock formulations and additives, I wondered whether or not this should be added to my crankcases. After all, the engines are run at higher RPM's and take a bit of abuse on a 70-80 mile trip fishing or ...I 've opened the hatches to check some things while we are running and when those engine doors open, it is super loud and scary ! I would think that the additive would be a good thing...Just re-read Mark's description of the load on a 454 boat engine a few posts above.

It only concerns me about some of those statements I have read about messing with the stock formulations prepared by people with substantially more knowledge than I."
 
"In general, 'additives&#3

"In general, 'additives' supplement a perceived 'deficiency' in a given product (this thread, it is oil). Based on past performance, I find no 'deficiency' in the oil I selected, in my application. So, I don't use any additive. I figure if you select an adequate product for the job, it has all required contents, for no additional price.

If you think the additive is needed for your application, it's not likely to hurt things. I'd rather spend those few dollars on an extra tub of bait, or 12 more cold ones, or, sometimes, added it to the "Kids tackle fund".

Speaking of investments, don't forget tomorrow with the wifes; it will only pay benefits in the next couple weeks we we start 'disappearing' at the boat yards."
 
"All you need is 10 pounds of

"All you need is 10 pounds of oil pressure per thousand rpms. If you have more than that---thanks to oil additives, straight weight oil, etc.--then you are wearing the oil pump gears more than needed.

On the roar made by our engines at cruising speeds, you'd hear the same thing if you stuck your head under the hood of your car at freeway speeds. Scary, ain't it! But normal (usually).

Jeff

PS: With modern oils, you don't even need the 10 lbs./ 1,000 rpms, according to the experts."
 
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