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Sorry - have to vent a bit...

G

galamb

Silver Medal Contributor
After reading over 30 or 40 posts that all basically say "my motor won't run - or won't run properly", a common theme emerges in most of the cases.

When they state "my motor won't start", what they are really saying can be broken down into basically 2 different statements as follows:

1) I bought this motor off "Bob" who said it was running perfectly the last time he used it. After we chased the mice out from under the cowl who had nested there sometime over the last few years while it sat in his backyard, not covered, we did get it to turn over but it wouldn't start. I bought it anyhow and brought it home.

I have no mechanical ability and don't own a manual (nor do I want to waste the 35 bucks for one) and I'm definately not paying a shop 100 bucks an hour to figure out what wrong - so can one of you guys direct me to a 5 dollar can of "magic" at Pep Boys so that I can take my kid out fishing this weekend; OR

2) 5 years ago I bought a brand new Opti or 4 stroke using the dealers "easy payment terms". Of course, after making those simple payments I had insufficient funds to pay for gas more than one or two long weekends a year.

Since I rarely use the motor I don't see the need to spend extra money on such frivolous things like sparkplugs, filters, oil, storage preparation, testing or adjustments from the shop (since you can't work on most ECM motors without a diagnostic terminal) etc and unless someone snuck in my backyard some night with a tool kit and parts, the impeller is original too.

Now my motor isn't running properly and since I'm down now to my last 20 easy payments I still can't quite afford to take it in for testing. So can you maybe guess which sensor is shot for me?

Seriously, this board is a great resource for guys/gals who are trying to "fix it themself" with the aid of a manual (which they bought) and a little guidance from some of us here. Others want an opinion or second opinion if they are having work done at the shop.

But if you have neither the inclination or ability to undertake the work yourself - which means buying a manual and at least some basic tools - or are unwilling or can't afford to take it to a shop, then maybe you should preserve that home for the mice and just leave the motor in your backyard until you are serious about fixing it...
 
To me a message board is a good place to find people who have had similar problems that can lead you in the right direction to find a solution. I have done basic things to my motor like change plugs and impeller but I'm no where near knowledgable enough to try and figure out these complex motors these days. It's hard to fix something when you dont know where to start.
 
I really understand what you are saying, but a modern "ECU" driven outboard just can not be trouble-shot on a board like this unless it's been first hooked up to a terminal.

Some models have 10 or more sensors and often times any 5 of them can give you the same symptom, and it's just plain bad advice (and costly) to try and guess which one may be bad (if any) and simply swap it out.

The cost of the diagnostic is almost always less than half the price on any individual sensor. Then once you know what's wrong (or the test comes up clean) then advice can be sought as to how to correct it or install the part etc.

Otherwise, you can get a handful of "possibles" that still require having the motor hooked to a DDT to confirm.

On the other side of the coin, tell us what you have done. IE. changed the plugs, pulled and cleaned the carbs, tested for spark, checked compression, whatever and my point was IF you can't do any of those things yourself and are not even willing to learn then I'm not sure what/why you are asking for advice unless it's to get some idea of what the dealer is going to tell you when you take it in. And if that's the case, why not state it in the question.

If someone asks something and it's suggested that they "pull, disassemble, clean and rebuild the carb" and you may as well have asked them to sing the anthem in a foreign language - then the advice should have been - take it to a shop.

Like I said in the title - just venting - it shouldn't take 20 posts on the same thread to find out that the person asking the questions hasn't even taken the hood off the motor and wouldn't know what they were looking at if they did.

It really is ok to "write a book" in your post. That will allow others to gauge whether you have significant skills or minimal and taylor an answer to fit your question in a language you will understand and be beneficial. If you don't tell us we don't know wht you have done or what you are capable of, plus we can't see the engine.

With almost 7000 posts I obviously don't mind giving advice but would really appreciate it if posters would take a couple minutes of their time to "paint a picture" of their motor, so that my time spent going through service manuals to form an answer is not a waste of my time...
 
I personally have a fear of bringing my boat to a shop with idea what could be a cause of my problem. I've heard way too many stories of people that have issues, bring it to the shop and some hack hooks up the motor to the computer probably doesn't run it under a load and then says. "no problem here thanks for the $100".

Then on the other side you've got some shops that will just start telling you this and that need to be replaced when they dont even know and your problem still isn't solved and they've got your money.
 
We need a sticky, so that people can help themselves. You know, state clearly what the problem is, when it occurs, weather conditions, load etc etc.
Frankly, even if you only ever intend to do very minor servicing, a workshop manual is worth it's weight in gold.

Regards, Andrew.
 
I think its past your nap time, old fella.

I did see the 1 guy blasting you and Jeff for no reason. Some people just cant be helped.

I'm sure most are happy for whatever help you give. But it wouldn't hurt if they told you which end of the boat the problem was on. jb
 
Well unlike other shops in my area. I charge 80$ One hour per invoice to inspect and find the problem. If I do not find the problem in One hours than that is my issue. I have been doing this long enough that if I cannot find it in an hour I maybe should go back to school!!! LOL. NOW!!!! that being said. there are the weird cases out there like this one.

I have a 90 at my shop right now, that has a 2002 bottom end and a 1988 Top end. Which was Rebuilt (re-ringed) I know automatically that these motors twist sleeves and other various problems. OK motor start idles, no power, back-fires through the exhaust into the water etc...

OK so let presume to check fuel, check spark, check all the electrical etc all that is great, compression is 120 across all three cylinders. Remove the exhaust cover no twisted or moved sleeves. Remove the carbs and reeds to check for the bleed restrictors, they are there. NOW What. Stick a dial indicator in #1 cylinder wind it up to TDC, back it off to .391 to align the timing pointer. Well I run out of dial indicator with .300 thou left to go. OK NOW I get the full story from the customer. The motor was pieced together with parts from three or 4 motors including some 4 cylinder stuff. Rods, Pistons. I have no idea what combination of crank, rods and pistons are in this motor and I now have three hours of my time in it BECAUSE I was not told the whole story in the beginning. - So do I still charge only the 1 hr diagnostic time. NO I am charging straight time and he got me another Big Bore powerhead to rebuild for him. This motor had the harness cut in several places, circuit breakers on the motor CDM's removed and replaced with reg coils and a switchbox. Just a bastardized setup and very unsafe from a fire hazard...

I would never have even thought to return this motor to a customer the way it is, The boat is a 2006 Lund that has never been in the water, because no one could figure out why the motor would not run...

Here is another one that I would never do. I have a customer call me with a 3.0 Litre Iron Duke that he has at another shop that says it has low compression on #4. I ask how they diagnosed it, as they have already told him that it is too old to fix. I said not so and the boat has value to the client so in that case why not fix it. Anyhow I said OK 80$ I will properly diagnose the motor, leakdown, check the cam lift make sure a rocker, pushrod or lifter is not toast and then if those are ok we will look at rebuiliding. The boat shows up, The head is off the motor, all the bolts etc are gone, the customers boat left outside with no cover on the boat or motor in heavy rains for two weeks guess WHAT, The motor is coming out now with no option and I have to charge the customer for a set of cutters for my boring bar from the rust in the cylinders- OH but the dealer had put the motor back together or so he was told, it goes both ways I guess.

rgds,

Dave
 
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New guy on the forum here, but I spend a lot of time answering questions on a small engine site, so I can somewhat relate. I'd suggest just not answering questions that you don't think are properly framed. It's very generous of you to give your time and expertise to help others out, but you're not obligated to help people you don't think are helping themselves. Personally when a poster comes to the site and lays out engine specs, their thoughts, the diagnostic procedure they followed, the results, etc. I feel motivated to help and do. When another poster comes along with "My lawnmower won't start, what do I do?!?!?!?!?!", I just tend to let those ones go by. Just my 2c.
 
I can understand where you are coming from Galamb.

How about a sticky at the top for the forum that out lines what should be included in the initial post (serial number, model, hp, year etc etc) Include a link so that people can look up the year/model of their motor from the serial etc. You and the other experts on this forum should detail what you need to know, and if those guidelines aren't followed, that forget the question.

You guys are very generous in sharing your knowledge, and I am sure I speak for most people in this forum when I say that we are extremely greatful for you advice and help, so thank you to all of you that give advice!
 
I am not here to vent but to pass out praise,I for one came to this site by accident.I bought a boat that was running but turned out to be a nightmare.I had no expierence on fixing a boat motor,but I thought if I can rebuild my truck motor how hard can it be to fix a small outboard motor.What a rude awakening.Now I came to this site with 101 questions and everyday I can come up with another one.My first post probably was my boat doesnt run right help???I got the same thing what year, horse power serial Nr, etc.Jeff,Gelamb,and a few others took the time to explain make suggestions and got me on the right track and therefore I am forever grateful.If they would have past me up I probably would have given up on the boating thing.So as being one of the dumb ones that didnt know how to post properly and not knowing where the hell my boat has been and what was done to it before I am guilty as charged. Thank You for your patience and understanding because of you I have the luxury of boating..:)
 
To be fair I really don't think most of us who do give our time here mind the questions from people who really don't know.

What caused me to blow a gasket was a post that had about 20 threads and the original author starts critisizing the ("worthless") info he had been getting even though we still didn't have a clear understanding of what was wrong;

and it was fairly aparent, that if the answer we gave him was anything other than "run down to the discount autoparts store, and spend $2.99 on Uncle Bob's magic outboard restore in a can" or offered to pop by and work on it for nothing (plus supply the parts as well), there was going to be no satisfaction.

But I feel so much better now, especially knowing "I'm not alone" :)
 
I don't think anyone who sees someone with 7k posts on a DIY-help site would accuse that person of lacking compassion towards less experienced DIYers (actually I can think of a few posters on other sites with thousands of posts who would hardly be accused of being compassionate, but that's another story ;)).

You just have to know when you've reached your limit. If your advice is not being well received, move on. There are plenty of other opportunities to assist. Again, just my 2c.
 
I am a fairly new member on this site and read some of the problems that are posted. I would have to agree with galamb that a lot of the post questions are vague or the poster didn't take the time to search the topic that they are looking for.
 
I also am a member of a few other boards. One of the things I always suggest to people is to do a "search" on their topic/question. In a lot of cases, they will find previous threads with the information/answers they are looking for. This not only prevents guys like Galamb from wasting their time answering the same questions multiple times, but it also gets the poster answers to their issue much faster!

I call that a win/win!

Dave
 
I would like to thank the members who help us DIYers. I feel if you have been helped, find someone else who needs help in an area that you have knowledge in and assist them if you have the ability. You should pay it forward and take some of the work and pressure off of the Fine members of this site who make everyone’s lives easer and the world a better place to live. If this philosophy were followed by all less than adequate questions would not be asked. Regards! Gary
 

I am confused. No one is contracted to give advice here are they? I thought this was a public forum. You look at the posts and if you have had a similar problem or know the answer you help the guy. I have a boat and don't know much about the motor ,but I sure would like some info to point me in the right direction regarding my problem.

I work designing and programming computer control systems for nuclear and gas power plants. I have eight years of education related to my occupation. If you don't know much about what I do, and I am quite sure you don't, I wouldn't put you down about it.

Reading this post and subsequent replies, I get the feeling that some of you think the people that ask questions here are simpletons and you are somehow better, perhaps smarter.
Not everybody knows enough to post all the info in the order and nomenclature you want. Have you ever heard the question "are you bragging or complaining"? Maybe that is what is really being implied here.
 
OK, so the operator of a Power Plant sends you an email that says:

"My power plant is broken, it won't produce power."

Not particularly helpful, and I assume immediately you would need to request more information. Would it not have been more efficient if there had been some background and situation related information provided with the initial email?

These guys are simply asking for questions that we submit to provide some background information. (Serial number, Model, age, condition, work already done, things tried etc). I am quite sure there is nothing insulting intended by them asking for more information. The background information they request is not difficult to provide, and if someone has trouble with terminology, or how to find a serial number, then by all means ask for help to find it. Just make the effort is all that is being asked.

The fact that no one is contracted to provide information here is exactly why we "simpletons" should make the effort to provide some background and details regarding our questions. These guys are unpaid and stop by here on their own time. I for one appreciate their help and am happy to provide questions with the supporting information they ask for if I am able to provide it.
 
Wow, just had to stroke your ego in that post eh? Who thinks whom is worthless, those that give solutions, or those who go on about their academic studies.
 
Many of you are trying to read too much into my initial "vent".

I got very ticked off when someone who had provided near zero information on their problem, went off on a couple of us basically calling us useless.

After two of us went back and forth with this guy trying, using some direct questions to try to get enough detail to even determine what the problem was, he got even more irritated and couldn't figure why we were asking a bunch of stupid questions that would only result in useless answers.

I don't make judgements as to whether someone a "simpleton" of a rocket scientist.

And it's definately not about trying to impress you as to how educated I am - I never even finished high school - so no ego game for me.

And no, nobody is contracted - I give maybe 20 hours a week of my time answering questions, looking up issues in manuals and service manuals etc to try and give a few people enough information that they don't have to spend 100 bucks an hour at a shop having a simple proceedure done that you can fix at home.

So please don't call me names or call the information useless after I have spent a couple hours researching your problem because my answer wasn't "go to pep boys and buy the $3.99 can of magic outboard fixer".

I'm only asking that people include some detail in their post.

Otherwise, what would you consider an appropriate response to -

"my motor won't start" (?)

Should our response be "turn the key"...
 
It was a simple description of my background no ego stroking implied. It is interesting how you gravitated right to that one line. I am on other forums trying to get an answer to this and I see a lot of the senior members grumbling and getting testy over what they assume are stupid or improper questions. I have trouble with that. If it is such a big issue then have a form that one fills out and don't allow them to post until all the questions are answered. Who cares where the guy got the motor or how much he paid for it? Who cares if he is looking for a can of fix it? Why should anyone care if he is trying to save some coin? I still think the guy is using complaining as a form of bragging.
 
The only time you would hear a complaint out of most of us regulars is when someone get's nasty in their response back.

And I am not aware of anyone on this board belittling someone for a stupid question.

And, sorry, but it sometimes is important where the motor came from.

It makes alot of difference when trying to figure out a problem if the motor was just bought at a yard sale and the new owner has zero information on the motors history.

And yes, sometimes the answer will be "run a can of PowerTune" through the motor - but before we get to that point, you do need some background.

An outboard is no different than any other mechanical or computerized component - if something fails, you run a diagnostic to track down the problem.

Since we are trying to do this "on-line", there is no other way to visualize the problem then through the description provided.

If one of the plants you develop systems for called you on the phone and said "my computer don't work", what would your intial response be?

Wouldn't you at least ask - which system? (maybe it's not even your component), what is it doing or not doing? are you seeing an error message (or whatever)?

And if you asked those questions and the caller immediately got hostile and started accusing you of (basically) calling him an idiot, would you be more or less inclined to help "if you had no obligation at all"?

That's the only point I was trying to make...
 
Point well made by all !! Most of us here identify with diagnosing a motor problem will gladly give whatever knowledge known to us about a particular motors quirks. We aren't all marine mechanics and gladly accept what help comes our way.
I say, great job, and please keep up the great work galamb.
 
galamb, you are awesome! Don't let any of this bullcrap get to you. If it weren't for guys like you then nobody would get answers. Their would be just one dummy telling another dummy what he thinks he should do. If someone gives you a hard time, just give up on him! KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK, guys like me need your advice. You have replied to a couple of my posts and were right on the money. THANKS!!!!!!!!
 
I would like to thank those who have helped me my problem!! I am In Phoenix Az. and have tried to talk to local people here they want you to believe that this is black magic and won't answer questions just bring it in. with the help of this forum my problem has been fixed and I want you all others that do help us ignorant people out here a very special THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Art Cox
 
It's amazing that some free good advise is shot down.Marine engines can be a royal pain in the behind if you dont know what your doing. I have a motor that I cant get running right (is it the fault because the people here give me bad advise??)NO its probably because I cant follow the advise that was presented to me or that I dont understand.I would bet bottom dollar if one of these people that gave me some advise would be living in my neighborhood they might have stopped by to show me what was wrong.So do I get back on this site and have a cow because I think that someone gave me bad advise,no I dont think so.But thats just me.Have I had a tissy fit because my crap doesnt run right,you bet but thats my fault.So my advise would be if you dont like the answer you got about your problem dont ask or ask the proper question.Oh and by the way if you live in my neighborhood your more than welcome to come over and show me what a dumbass I am LOL.
 
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No problem, maybe this will help. I have a 25 hp mercury sea pro 1993 with electric start on the tiller. My alum. boat had a leak so i had it welded. The motor was making contact with the ground when the welding took place. I cannot get any fire to either cyclinder, I believe the welding has damaged the ingnition system. I have a diagram of the wiring and have studied it. The starter spins great. Following the diagram it goes to the black switch box and then some wires go to the trigger and the stator and return to the black switch box with out but to both coils. I have verified that the stop switch is not closed. My question is what voltages do I measure at what points or ohm checks I need to make and what values should I expect. It would be easy to assume the switch box is shorted but I cannot affort to buy more than what is broken. It must be the Trigger, stator, switch box, or both coils or all? I am sure teh wedling caused it because I had used it days before and I have seen welders smoke ac motors because of grounding issues. Please help
 
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