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Repeated Seized Engine?

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Lionel2100

New member
I have Silverton with twin 454s. In 2014 I moved it to a new marina. After several hours at about 12 knots (not really pushing) I was idling, looking for the Marina and the starboard engine quit. I brought it the last few miles on just the port. The service manager from the new marina took a look at the engine and said that it was hydro-locked. After a week, they freed the engine and took it apart. They found that there was a bad seal in the fuel pump. They replaced the pump as well as all the belts as they said they were loose and they wanted to sand and paint the pullies for good measure, but by the time they were done doing the work and waiting for parts (I also had them do the water pump and belts on the port side) I lost the boat for the last 2 months of the season as the only time the boat moved was the 100' it took to get it to the launch.

At the beginning of the 2015 season, the engine wouldn't start. The service manager came down and took a look and said they were too busy with launching to do any work. After losing the end of the 2014 season, I wasn't overly concerned and came back 2 weeks later. I found the boat smelled like gas and opened all the windows and the hatch covers. After it aired out some, I went down to the bilges and still smelled gas. I put the blowers on and let it run for hours.... but it still smelled like gas. The service manager came back yet again and told me they would take a look. A month went by and they called and said that it was a carburetor problem. Fuel leaked into the oil. They drained the oil, took off the carbs. They wanted to rebuild both carbs, but an older "helper" at the shop knew a shop that specialized in rebuilding them and had them sent out. They changed the plugs, put on the new carbs and a few other forgotten minor things. This took about 2 months. I came back to the boat to take it out. When I arrived, the service manager bragged about how great it ran. I opened the hatches and sure enough, the carbs looked great, the engines were spotless. I started both engines, let them idle for 20 minutes and they sounded impressive.

The next day, I started both engines and warmed them up for about 15 minutes. I pulled out of the slip at an idle and turned to head away. The starboard engine quit and wouldn't re-start. I went right back into the slip. They told me that they would take a look. At this point, there was roughly a month to the end of the season and I was a bit defeated. I told them to do whatever work was needed and winterized everything but the engines.

My own fault, I didn't follow up at the end of the 2015 season. I didn't get any bills and figured they didn't do any work. Even if they decided to, there would be nothing to be done with the short amount of time anyway. So at the start of the 2016 season, I was not surprised when I was told that the starboard engine wasn't running. What I was shocked to hear was that the starboard engine was seized from no oil pressure and the entire engine was a loss. They found this at the end of the season and hadn't touched it since and were waiting for an answer from me (fair enough, I wasn't a ball of fire doing anything with it).

So I opened the hatches went down and took a look. The belts are off and it looked like the they tried to free it. I checked the oil and it looked clean, no gas in it. I looked over the engine, high and low and could not see a crack, nor could I see anywhere a rod went through it.

At this point, I get the impression that they are chasing the problem. All three times, the engine is stopping when there is no load on it and its either "hydrolock" or "seized" and the leaking fuel is a repeated problem. My thought is to get a second opinion before I shell out $$$ for a new engine. Any thoughts on where to start looking for issues or is this a legit dead engine?
 
If I understand what you mean by hydro locked you had water in the cylinders and if it sat all winter that way then god only knows how much damage was done. If you are at all a do it yourselfer I would first pull the spark plugs out and see if anything drains out. If something does the question is what is it. Spray a little oil in each cylinder and then see if it will turn over by hand. If it does try turning it over with the starter and watch your oil gauge because as you turn it over it should build up oil pressure. I would shut off the fuel and pull the coil wire prior to all of this as you dont want it to start. That should give you an idea of the oil pressure loss. If you don't like to do things like this yourself then yes, most definately get a 2nd opinion. Good luck with your repairs.
 
In answer to your question, you need a second opinion or at least some real clarification as to what the marina found and what they did. Too many things don't make sense.

First, I don't know how a running engine could hydrolock without some sort of major failure, which did not happen or it would not have subsequently started and run. Did it turn over when you tried to restart? If so, did it turn over smoothly or kind of bumpy start stop? But let's assume that by the time the marina got to the engine, it was in fact hydrolocked. The only way to diagnose, and to "free" the engine would be to remove the spark plugs and turn it over. What fluid was that came out the cylinders (water, antifreeze or gasoline), would tell them how to further diagnose the problem. What was the fluid? And what did they do when the "took it apart"? If we knew the answers to those questions likely we could make some good guesses. If all they changed was a gasket in the fuel pump, that would not have caused this problem, which means if that if that was all they did, the problem was not fixed. (Although sanding and painting the pulleys is always a good idea).

So then the next year you tried to start the engine and failed. You came back to find your starting efforts had put a lot of fuel in the engine, which ran down into the crankcase. That could indicate bad carburetors, or perhaps just a lot of turnovers and throttle pumping. In any case, the carbs were rebuilt. The engine then ran well for both the service manager and you.....until you tried to run it for a longer period and seemingly the same issue occurred.

Now the engine is "seized". You have been told that it was due to no oil pressure. If that is the case it happened when you last had the boat out. Did it turn over when you tried to restart? Did you get an oil warning light?

I like Missnancy's advice. You need to see if the engine is again hydrolocked, and if so what the fluid might be. If it is water (because of a leaking elbow) then you are pretty much done for. After a winter the rust generated in the engine will ruin it. And to be truthful, if I had to make one guess based upon the information we have, that would be it. If that is the case, the marina was negligent in not doing that repair when it first happened.

If the fluid is antifreeze, then you have a bad head gasket or cracked something and the head must come off to see what's up. The problem could be fixable. If gasoline....well I don't know what that means since the engine was idling when it died. It just does not seem likely since you just had the carbs rebuilt.

I suspect that the "oil pressure"="engine seized" story is a misdiagnosis by someone at the marina, but if true then you will need a new engine.

Sorry I can't be of more help, but the information you have received from the marina (unless there is more of it) is unclear and does not really hang together.

Good luck.
 
missnancy said:
If I understand what you mean by hydro locked you had water in the cylinders and if it sat all winter that way then god only knows how much damage was done. If you are at all a do it yourselfer I would first pull the spark plugs out and see if anything drains out. If something does the question is what is it. Spray a little oil in each cylinder and then see if it will turn over by hand. If it does try turning it over with the starter and watch your oil gauge because as you turn it over it should build up oil pressure. I would shut off the fuel and pull the coil wire prior to all of this as you dont want it to start. That should give you an idea of the oil pressure loss. If you don't like to do things like this yourself then yes, most definately get a 2nd opinion. Good luck with your repairs.
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Thank you for the reply. The first time it was "hydro locked" was in 2014 and there was gas in the cylinders. This was "repaired" before the boat was removed from the water and winterized. This time, the engine was called "seized" due to oil pressure loss at the end of 2015. I'm not much of a mechanic, but I'm going to see if I can get the engine to at least turn over by hand first, just for my own learning how to do things. Either way, at this point, I'll get a proffessional to come in because I don't feel confident with the mechanics at this marina putting in an entire new engine.
 
CaboJohn said:
In answer to your question, you need a second opinion or at least some real clarification as to what the marina found and what they did. Too many things don't make sense.
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First, thank you for the reply. After the 2014 failure, the engine stopped and would not restart at all, until the engine was freed and the fuel pump changed. There was gasoline in the oil. In 2015, you are correct, regardless of what the issue was, the carbs were both rebuilt.... after that the engines on both sides sounded fantastic and started right up every time... until run longer and the engine quit. However this time, I did not see gasoline in the oil like last time. The engine would not turn over again and I did not see a low oil warning. That made me highly suspicious. However, I was not there when the boat was taken out for the end of the season.

At the end of the season, the marina had the plugs out and and left them out. The marina did not say that it was "hydro locked" but rather "seized". Their statement is that the oil pump failed and seized the engine.

At this point, if what they said is true, that the oil pump failed and then the engine seized, I would assume that there would have been a knocking in the engine, a thrown rod, a cracked block... something. I guess at this point, I'm just looking for some confirmation that the information I'm being told doesn't make sense. Either they've left something out (like they were moving the boat to take it out and something occurred) or they simply are misdiagnosing the problem and don't either don't want to come clean and tell me they've been wrong for 2 years or possibly they honestly don't have a clue what's wrong. I seem to have no real choice except get another opinion from an another mechanic.
 
It sounds like they took out the plugs and found they still could not turn over the engine. Since they have not taken the engine apart (yet) the story about oil pump failure leading to seizure would be just a possibility, not a diagnosis. Still, if you cannot get it to turn over (manually) with the plugs out, then something is really wrong. There are certainly possibilities other than the oil pump failure, but most are going to require an engine teardown to find and hopefully repair.
 
Thanks guys; I figured as much, but I'm hardly an expert. When I figure it all out, I'll post the results so that others can learn from it.
 
Following your nautical nightmare. None of the possible scenarios described are preceded by the classical presentations. A water hydrolock while running usually is preceded by MUCH steam vapor out the exhaust. If it just smells like steam the problem is usually a bad elbow, if it smells like antifreeze it is probably a bad head gasket. A fuel hydrolock after the engine has not been running for a while may be a bad antisiphon valve on the tank pickup AND a bad mechanical pump AND possibly a bad inlet valve in the carb. If fuel siphons past the pump while the engine is running it will most likely stall and not start due to being flooded. If oil pressure is lost the audio warning should sound highlighting the failure. If equipped with an electric pump, the engine will shut down as soon as the pump power pressure switch opens. If water sat in the cylinders during the off season the resulting rust will lock up the engine. An assessment by another mechanic with a solid rep is definitely in order.
Good Luck
FL Panhandle
 
Mulletwagon said:
Following your nautical nightmare.
FL Panhandle
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Thanks for the reply. The part that scares me the most is if they failed to winterize the engine because they considered it "seized". If they didn't and there is rust in the inside of the engine, I'm going to go from a nautical nightmare to a nuclear meltdown. Based on the above suggestions, I picked up a couple quarts of mystery oil and am going to see if the engine is really seized or not. I don't see how this could have been an oil pump, because of the safety features, it should have shut off. From yours and other's comments as well as my own gut about this situation, the diagnosis is likely wrong. I'll post results of what I found on Sunday.
 
So the engine is shot, seized and I can't free it. I found that there was plenty of oil in the head, but there are metal shavings in it. One cylinder is 'bronze' from what I can only guess is too much heat. Also, the nut that hold down that piston was also "bronzed". Strangely, I noticed that seven of the spark plugs were shot.... and one was brand new, but was a different size. At any rate, the engine is done. I'll likely start a new thread and ask for some ideas on how to rebuild or replace it. Thanks for the help.
 
missnancy said:
Sorry to hear it. I used rapido marine in Hollywood Fla when I repowered. Good prices and great shipping cost.
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I checked it out; they really have some good prices there. I'm thinking that if I can re-use some of my parts, a repower would be a better way to go. Thanks for the lead.
 
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