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question about winterizing...

C

carboncow

Contributing Member
Hello, new poster. Hopefully people don't get cranky here like on other sites about non-stop questions about winterizing!

I've got twin 454ci (model 350) out of my 1983 Tiara 3100 Convertible, so I'll assume the engines are approx. also of the 1983 vintage. Fresh water cooling (Great Lakes)

Had to make some last minute changes about storage and decided to do it myself this year...been watching my buddy do it the last few years.

Here is what I did...

1. Pulled boat but by the time we got to the engines I'm guessing they cooled
2. Drained water from block and risers...4 plugs total per engine.
3. Pulled pickup hose from water pump and sucked approx. 5 gallons of antifreeze through system

Since the engine was cooler and the thermostat most likely cool I considered pulling the thermostat housing but it has been sealed shut (not gasket). I decided to pull the block block drain plugs again and 100% strong antifreeze came up.

Is it safe to assume that since pink juice came from the block after pumping it through that the block is safely winterized...or are there are areas/pockets that can only be had with the thermostat open. I know on most thermostats they are never fully closed...coolant always get by.

4. I then pumped another 3 gallons thru each engine (8 gallons total) until strong pink was shooting from the exhaust.

If those blocks are full of pink, are they winterized?
 
FYI: You mention: Fresh water cooling (Great Lakes)

The term FWC is used in somewhat of a misnomer fashion.
Some will use this term to describe an Raw Water cooled engine that operates in River/Lake water only.
Some will use this term to describe a Closed Cooling system regardless of River/Lake/Ocean.

IMO, these should be thought of as either an "Open" system (raw water cooling), or as a "Closed System" (closed cooling system..... i.e, heat exchanger and E/G coolant).

Had the industry stuck with this, there'd be much less confusion.


carboncow said:
Here is what I did...

1. Pulled boat but by the time we got to the engines I'm guessing they cooled
Yes, they will always cool down, causing the thermostat to hold back coolant.

2. Drained water from block and risers...4 plugs total per engine.
Great idea.

3. Pulled pickup hose from water pump and sucked approx. 5 gallons of antifreeze through system
Under any other circumstances, this is very risky for many people.
See this write up.

Since the engine was cooler and the thermostat most likely cool I considered pulling the thermostat housing but it has been sealed shut (not gasket). I decided to pull the block block drain plugs again and 100% strong antifreeze came up.
Again, this is good!
You could leave things alone right at this point, and be OK.

Is it safe to assume that since pink juice came from the block after pumping it through that the block is safely winterized... or are there are areas/pockets that can only be had with the thermostat open.
Yes, there will be small pockets of residual sea water.
This is why draining first is very important.

I know on most thermostats they are never fully closed... coolant always get by.
Many thermostats offer a small air bleed hole for the purpose of purging air.

4. I then pumped another 3 gallons thru each engine (8 gallons total) until strong pink was shooting from the exhaust.
In my write up this is touched on in length.

If those blocks are full of pink, are they winterized?
If no dilution has occurred to the antifreeze, yes.

However, antifreeze within the engine block/cylinder heads gives us that "Feel Good" feeling only.
The amount of rust/corrosion that would occur during the layup will be paled by comparison to that which occurs during the normal boating season.

If hell bent on doing this, drain it again afterwards.
Just plain ole air won't freeze expand and crack our expensive cast iron components.
Never has.... never will.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Thanks Rick. I actually read your other post on the industry use of terms and understand now better. No exchangers on my boat so an "Open" system.

I wanted to make a few statements and confirm a few things.

My #3 Point: (I read you amazon review)....why do you say "risky for many people" are you talking to personal safety or just a dangerous way to winterize? I now realize that I didn't get the water out of my glass strainers, not good!

My #4 Point: I wasn't implying that antifreeze coming out of the exhaust assumes the system is full of antifreeze but for me it confirmed that I've used enough to get through the risers, I understand the block is a whole nothing story and thus why I'm here.

Question: You mention just undoing the drains ports (I thought of this but NOBODY does this up where I am), I'm going todo this for sure especially after running the coolant thru everything. I note the RV type fluid we all use for winterizing makes no claim of corrosion prohibitive.

So what do you do to confirm that the block has antifreeze...do you always pull the thermostat and dump fluid in there?
Again, my block is full of pink stuff and I put it in a clear glass and compared it to the stuff fresh out of the jug...same translucency without confirming with a spectrograph!

My boat mechanic for many years was a buddy but we are not near him now. I really see no difference in what I'm doing then what he has done...other then he always had a pump on his 5 gallon buckets of bug juice...I never saw him pull the thermostat housing but he always claimed the stat was still open since he did it with 30 minutes of pulling the boat. I was always skeptical. The only difference is I'm storing out doors this year on the lake where the winter will be brutal...so I'm trying to make sure I got this.
 
With a RWC'ed setup, if you want to be absolutely positive, the best approach is to drain the block & exhausts, pull the t-stat, and then pump the antifreeeze into the system.

Also, I'd be a bit leery of the concentration of antifreeze in the block based on just a visual inspection....an instrument is a much better tool than the eye....

A cast iron assembly that has its internal passages filled with a liquid will oxidize (rust) much less than one that is empty...no oxygen (from the air) means no rust.

Finally, be aware that there are many grades of pink antifreeze, all with different "bursting points"...you usually get what you pay for...
 
makomark said:
With a RWC'ed setup, if you want to be absolutely positive, the best approach is to drain the block & exhausts, pull the t-stat, and then pump the antifreeeze into the system.

Also, I'd be a bit leery of the concentration of antifreeze in the block based on just a visual inspection....an instrument is a much better tool than the eye....

A cast iron assembly that has its internal passages filled with a liquid will oxidize (rust) much less than one that is empty...no oxygen (from the air) means no rust.

Finally, be aware that there are many grades of pink antifreeze, all with different "bursting points"...you usually get what you pay for...
Click to expand...

What do you mean by "grade"? I've never seen a grade of antifreeze. It claims it's good to 50 below and we never seen more then a few degrees below zero.
 
Around here, CAMCO is a popular brand and 95% of the stores only stock the Freeze Ban -50 product....CAMCO also offers a Freeze Ban -100 as well as several other formulations....


Also, you need to understand what that -50 rating means....undiluted, you shouldn't have any problems at a few degrees below 0 F....diluted and it could be a different story...
 
makomark said:
Around here, CAMCO is a popular brand and 95% of the stores only stock the Freeze Ban -50 product....CAMCO also offers a Freeze Ban -100 as well as several other formulations....


Also, you need to understand what that -50 rating means....undiluted, you shouldn't have any problems at a few degrees below 0 F....diluted and it could be a different story...
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice. The -100F stuff around here is well over $10 a gallon. I think you provide a very cautious rule of thumb to the theory of dilution...but before becoming alarmist does anyone really know how much dilution vs. temp someone can really change...science vs. real world experience? The way you word it...it seems like a little water in the block still and it's barely going to work at -4F!!

I like the idea of opening the plugs again and getting air in there.
 
............

These are all very fair questions.

carboncow said:
Thanks Rick. I actually read your other post on the industry use of terms and understand now better. No exchangers on my boat so an "Open" system.

I wanted to make a few statements and confirm a few things.

My #3 Point: (I read you amazon review).... why do you say "risky for many people" are you talking to personal safety or just a dangerous way to winterize?
A risky way to winterize a Raw Water Cooled engine, given the thermostat's role in this.
Many of these people see antifreeze exit the exhaust system, and they think..... "Wow... I did it!"

All winterizing is perfect at the beginning of Winter.... it's not until Spring time when they learn just how perfect it actually was (spelled "wasn't"). :mad:

I now realize that I didn't get the water out of my glass strainers, not good!
Yes... I would be draining those also.

My #4 Point: I wasn't implying that antifreeze coming out of the exhaust assumes the system is full of antifreeze but for me it confirmed that I've used enough to get through the risers,
Correct!
These kits almost always work well for exhaust systems and engines equipped with Closed Cooling systems.

I understand the block is a whole nothing story and thus why I'm here.
Yep!

Question: You mention just undoing the drains ports (I thought of this but NOBODY does this up where I am), I'm going todo this for sure especially after running the coolant thru everything.
Just plain ole air won't freeze expand and crack our expensive cast iron components.
Never has.... never will.

I note the RV type fluid we all use for winterizing makes no claim of corrosion prohibitive.
Many of these do not.
Like said..... it gives many of us that "Feel Good" feeling only.

So what do you do to confirm that the block has antifreeze... do you always pull the thermostat and dump fluid in there?
My concern is not so much rust/corrosion protection, as it is freeze damage prevention.
Personally, I haven't owned a Raw Water Cooled engine for many years, however, I do winterize these for customers.


Again, my block is full of pink stuff and I put it in a clear glass and compared it to the stuff fresh out of the jug... same translucency without confirming with a spectrograph!
If you are comfortable with doing this, and have been for years..... I'm no one to tell you differently.

My boat mechanic for many years was a buddy but we are not near him now. I really see no difference in what I'm doing then what he has done... other then he always had a pump on his 5 gallon buckets of bug juice... I never saw him pull the thermostat housing but he always claimed the stat was still open since he did it with 30 minutes of pulling the boat.
30 minutes or 2 minutes of pulling the boat out......... the thermostat will sense the temperature of the incoming Antifreeze, and will close/open accordingly.
This is my biggest issue with these so called "Winterizing Kits".

Now... if a person wanted to bring his antifreeze up to 200* prior..... I could see fewer issues. ;) (I'm joking)

I was always skeptical. The only difference is I'm storing out doors this year on the lake where the winter will be brutal... so I'm trying to make sure I got this.
For your engine's safety, just drain everything afterwards..... engine, exhaust, risers, elbows, etc.... and don't forget the Circ pump suction hose, nor any Cabin Heater or Water Heater lines.

As said....... just plain ole air won't freeze expand and crack our expensive cast iron components.
Never has.... never will.

Don't worry so much about rust/corrosion protection.
Your engine(s) will develop more rust/corrosion during the normal boating season, than it ever could during a winter nap.
Click to expand...
 
I use a spectrometer which eliminates some of the "how pink was it"? questions. Definitely a handy tool and not that expensive either. Using this, the -50 tests at around +13 - 15F degrees which is the temp when it begins to slush up. The -50 is the burst rating which can be a little confusing.
 
I think "not expensive" infers a reflectometer as opposed to a spectrometer...and, due to their versatility, i think they represent a better use of tool dollars..
 
makomark said:
I think "not expensive" infers a reflectometer as opposed to a spectrometer...and, due to their versatility, i think they represent a better use of tool dollars..
Click to expand...
Mark, you're closer than I was.... I must have too many meters :)
"Refractometer" is what I meant to type but maybe it's also called a reflectometer as well. Yes, well worth $30 or so and will test both the pink and green variety. Here's a link on ebay, the 1st one looks exactly like the one I have. http://www.ebay.com/bhp/antifreeze-refractometer
 
Bob:

Seems i botched it too....guess thats a by-product of mixing work (time domain reflectometer) and relaxation (refractometer)...

At least the device is identified properly, now...
 
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