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Power Tilt/Trim won't go down

A

anotherboatowner

New member
Johnson Javelin 1979 85 hp (i believe the model is 85TL79R, thought i will confirm when i get home)

Worked when i took it out of storage. started motor, moved up and down etc etc.

About two weeks ago I went to take it out and the motor will NOT trim down. It will trim UP.

I've removed the screw for fluid and attempted to fill it up, but it still will now go down.

I followed this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OduzaKv03Yo

When I hit the trim switch on the throttle the area of the trim make a low groaning noise.

Is there something else I can attempt to resolve this or am I bound for the marina?

Thanks
 
(Bypassing the PTT switch)

Trace the wire leading "from" the PTT electric motor to its connector and unplug it. Now, attach two small jumper wires from the battery to the two wires that lead to that PTT motor.

The wires attached in one manner should make the electric motor run in one direction... reversing those wires should make it run in the opposite direction.
 
I couldn't figure it out. Boat went to the shop and they said the entire Tilt and Trim assembly needs to be replaced.

They quoted me $729 for a used one, installed and out the door.

Worth it?
 
anotherboatowner said:
It seemed to dissappear into the left side of the tilt/trim motor, from there it ran to a box mounted inside the boat. I couldn't determine what to do based on what you said. see images below.
Click to expand...

Okay... Your engine has the older style PTT assembly that incorporates a three wire electrical motor and uses no connector. Sorry to have sent you off on a wild goose chase.

In the DOWN mode, voltage is send from the PTT switch directly to the Green wire leading to the PTT motor.

In the UP mode, voltage is sent to the solenoid within that junction box via the Blue wire that connected to the small terminal of that solenoid.

I'd hate to see you putting out a bundle of cash if all you need is another electric motor.

If you, or a friend, can temporarily disconnect the three wires leading to that electric motor, you could test it as follows. Take pictures, make note so that you can easily reattach the wires later on. Don't rely on memory.

Using jumper wires from the battery to the electric motor..... connect the negative (Black) terminal of the battery to the Black ground wire of the electric motor.

Then connect the positive (Red) terminal of the battery to the Blue wire of the electric motor, then to the Green wire.

Blue should make the unit go UP..... Green should make the unit go down. This test should reveal if the electric motor is okay or not.

The $729 is sort of steep for a used unit BUT one needs to take into consideration that it includes labor... and removing that unit can be one hellava headache. The heartbreak part is that it needs to be removed even to simply replace the electric motor.
 
joereeves said:
Okay... Your engine has the older style PTT assembly that incorporates a three wire electrical motor and uses no connector. Sorry to have sent you off on a wild goose chase.

In the DOWN mode, voltage is send from the PTT switch directly to the Green wire leading to the PTT motor.

In the UP mode, voltage is sent to the solenoid within that junction box via the Blue wire that connected to the small terminal of that solenoid.

I'd hate to see you putting out a bundle of cash if all you need is another electric motor.

If you, or a friend, can temporarily disconnect the three wires leading to that electric motor, you could test it as follows. Take pictures, make note so that you can easily reattach the wires later on. Don't rely on memory.

Using jumper wires from the battery to the electric motor..... connect the negative (Black) terminal of the battery to the Black ground wire of the electric motor.

Then connect the positive (Red) terminal of the battery to the Blue wire of the electric motor, then to the Green wire.

Blue should make the unit go UP..... Green should make the unit go down. This test should reveal if the electric motor is okay or not.

The $729 is sort of steep for a used unit BUT one needs to take into consideration that it includes labor... and removing that unit can be one hellava headache. The heartbreak part is that it needs to be removed even to simply replace the electric motor.
Click to expand...

Is the motor the white part outside the boat or is it the black panel inside the boat? Are there three wires I side the one large cable out of the ptt?
 
The electric motor is part of the PTT unit that is between the engine's transom brackets outside the boat.

The three wires are inside the cable you see leading from the port side of the PTT unit.
 
advise time:

I had the marina do an engine inspection. My thought was before sinking any more money into motor figure out whats the status of the motor.

They did a reverse compression(leak-down i think is the term) test where they put some air into the cylinder and measure how much comes out.

I was told that 10-15% for this motor is normal. Three of the four cylinders are at 15% and the fourth Cylinder is at 20%.

Thoughts?
 
Should be red, green, blue. Red is 12V+, blue is one direction, green is the other. Connect red to either of the other wires and see what happens. Do you have a 2nd switch on the motor? If so just try it there first. If not, try the jumper. Doubt it's the switch, be more apt to look at the trim relays on top of the carbs. Swap them, see if it doesn't work in the up mode then.
 
Team36Grit said:
Should be red, green, blue. Red is 12V+, blue is one direction, green is the other. Connect red to either of the other wires and see what happens. Do you have a 2nd switch on the motor? If so just try it there first. If not, try the jumper. Doubt it's the switch, be more apt to look at the trim relays on top of the carbs. Swap them, see if it doesn't work in the up mode then.
Click to expand...

i don't think there is a second switch on the motor.

I'll try this out. i'll be getting the boat back soon from the marina. i don't think I'll be spending this much loot on such an old motor.
 
anotherboatowner said:
I don't think I'll be spending this much loot on such an old motor.
Click to expand...

AnotherBOatOwner...... Smart move... chalk the loss up to experience.

Team36Grit...... This model's Power Tilt Trim (1979) did not incorporate Trim Relays, nor does a Red wire lead to the electric motor. See my reply post #9 above.
 
i was wrong on the model number Turn out its 85etlr78c

just got it back. so the tech showed me how to lower the motor manually(loosen a screw) and that works.

still won't go down. gonna try the PTT motor test. I really wanna get this at least functioning. Worth nothing not working.
 
anotherboatowner said:
Do you think the electrical motor needs replaced or something worse?
Click to expand...

I must say that I don't know. I've never heard a noise like that anywhere except in a submarine movie. I'd like to be there to pinpoint where that noise is coming from but unfortunately that's not possible.
 
joereeves said:
I must say that I don't know. I've never heard a noise like that anywhere except in a submarine movie. I'd like to be there to pinpoint where that noise is coming from but unfortunately that's not possible.
Click to expand...

Is it possible to remove the electric motor from The ptt without pulling the boat motor off the boat ? Assuming that if I pull it off I can isolate the noise to the electric motor.
 
anotherboatowner said:
Is it possible to remove the electric motor from The ptt without pulling the boat motor off the boat ? Assuming that if I pull it off I can isolate the noise to the electric motor.
Click to expand...

1978 85hp Johnson (85ETLR78C) -

Yes you can do that by having the engine tilted up, locked into place and supported so that it cannot accidentally fall or move to the port (Left) side.

With the engine supported as above, remove what is holding the port transom bracket in place and swing it out of the way. This will allow you to gain access to the forward screw holding the electric motor in place (3 total).
 
Without actually being there, I have no idea where that noise is coming from... never heard anything like it via the marine line.
 
It may also be a chafed cylinder wall of the main tilt cylinder/piston assembly, jamming in the down only position.

Did that electric motor have 2 or 3 wires? Reply with your email address here or via a PM and I'll send you the appropriate parts information.
 
anotherboatowner said:
I'm guessing it's somewhere in the manifold. Any idea what the part number might be for the entire ptt unit? Might as well start searching.
Click to expand...


anotherboatowner said:
I managed to take the motor off without killing myself. Testes the electrical motor and it spins both ways no problem and no noise.

For the vouyer in all of you. The carnage.

http://imgur.com/a/zyckp

So what's next? Replace the entire ptt unit?
Click to expand...

I know this is an old thread but I'm hoping what I put here will solve anyone else that is having the same issue as this person and as I just had with my clients boat.

The loud groan you are hearing is coming from the motor itself overworking trying to overcome a hydraulic lock due to a restriction in the system. Now according to everyone and manuals if you use the manual override it should trim down. IT DOESNT work in all cases.

My clients bottom two rams were stuck full up trim and the blockage was preventing the fluid from returning to the reservoir. (I found grime/debris in the pump/reservoir housings, still trying to narrow down the actual blockage.) (According to one forum a guy with 20yrs exp. working on these units says wrong fluid can cause this exact issue, but he never said his fix to alleviate the pressure) So got the assembly out of the boat(both motor and res. need to be removed first, )not easy due to lack of space.) tried to remove the ram caps but they wouldn't even budge. Tried to heat and retry and again no movement. I even built a custom spanner wrench out of 1/4 steel and used carbide bits as my pins and I bent the bits. Tried and air hammer like others say to do and again no movement. I was at the point of telling my client all had to be replaced. So if it all was going to be replaced I decided to experiment.

I drilled right through the ram cap on a slight inward angle as not to damage the actual housing, and eventually I did manage to drill down enough where fluid started to ooze out. To test my experiment I then hit the end of the ram with my hammer and FINALLY it moved!!! Took just a regular grinder spanner wrench and was able to fully remove both caps.

Long story short, excessive pressure was the cause as to why the caps "appeared" to be seized solid in place. Still have to locate the blocked port but at last I made progress. So if your rams are stuck full up and don't come down with the manual release, drill through the top to elevate the pressure first and then remove the cap.

Say im a butcher all you want but not one single forum or video was at all helpful, just repetitive in different wording. so here is hoping my findings will aid someone else going through the same. Do also note that some of the Allen set screws along the side, which I suspect are for relieving this pressure are actually seized in place and stripping out so don't hope it's just as easy as popping them open to work, as you may come across this problem as well.

I do strongly suggest doing an amp draw test going both ways on the motor before putting it all back together. My clients motor works fine, but when trying to trim down it draws over 15A, going up .3A so good chance the motor is done for but it's cheap to replace but I'll try cleaning and rebuilding it for him first.

Source out all new orings from a local oring shop instead of BRP or another dealer. Most orings are on average .50-$2 and these places can measure and some will even make you custom rings if need be. By far this is a cheaper option then paying BRPs outlandish prices. (I saved a different client over $500bux on one part by using the exact same part out of a completely different non-BRP unit, exact same part but $500 difference just because of BRP putting their name on it.)

To whomever it is that reads this I hope my hours of struggle and headaches help you out of your situation and save you the same hassles.
 
I am having this same exact issue with mine and I figured the fluid wasn't able to leave the cylinder because I can hear the motor running but no movement. Thank you!
 
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