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Not a specific Crusader Question

M

mjl

Member
"but for you experts out there

"but for you experts out there.

I thought I posted this earlier, but couldn't find it.

Anyway, 94 Tiara 29 Open with Crusader 350HT's and BW Velvet Drive 5000 Trannys. I am replacing my cutlass bearings and have separated shaft coupling fron the tranny. My manual shows 2 set screws in the coupling to hold the shaft, but there are none. What I have is a nut recessed on the inside of the coupling holding the shaft (1.25") on. I am trying to find out what size nut is in there. Anyone have any ideas.
Are there standards for this?

Secondly, when I pulled the shaft back I found scoring on the shaft. At what point does the scoring become a problem. I've read that this can be fixed. Any idea on the ballpark cost of repair?

Thanks,

Mark"
 
"Mark, If you have a single l

"Mark, If you have a single large nut on the end of the shaft, it's a tapered shaft and there are no set screws. There is no standard size for the nut but you can certainly measure it. You will probably need a thinwall socket. Once the nut is removed you still have to get the shaft out of the coupler which is a process in itself.

You will need to post some pics of the shaft to get an opinion on the scoring.

You may find it easier to have the bearing replaced professionally. This will save you from removing the shaft as they would have a press that works with your shaft in place. It normally costs about $200.00 in labor, plus the bearing. I'm a big fan of doing it yourself if you can, but by the time you spend the money to buy tools you may never use again you could pay someone with the tool and who does it every day.

Good luck,
Rick"
 
"Rick's words are wise; de

"Rick's words are wise; definately worth consideration.

You didn't state where the scoring was. you need to find the cause and correct that, too, or you'll repeat the process. If it is due to strut alignment, you have a major project to do it right. It isn't hard but potential very time consuming."
 
"Rick and Mark,

I agree wit

"Rick and Mark,

I agree with all you have said. The problem is my marina will not give a fixed price quote changing the bearings. My buddy paid $1400 to have them do his. For that I would buy the tool myself for $400 and press them out + the $100 for the bearings and "rent" the tool to my friends when they need it.

I'm not worried about changing the bearings themselves. That's the easy part. I just wasn't ready to find the coupling bolted on since my owners manual shows set screws in all the drawings. I was surprised to find this was not the case. I got further in the rain yesterday than I expected so I really wasn't prepared to take pictures or try to take measurements.

I also have Norscot shaft seals. While I am doing this I am also changing the seals, clamps and log tube hose.

As for the scoring, it is under the cutlass bearing. I know I am reaching for the answer I already know. I work for a machinery mfg who works on tolerances of 0.001 or better so I really know the answer as to getting it fixed.

I've had the boat for going on 6 years and figure they have never been changed. I guess my question is can the shaft be repaired or is it best to replace the shaft.

The boat is 2Hrs from me, so when I go down to it I try to be prepared. I don't want to run around trying to find a tool I could have bought during the week."
 
"You have a tapered coupling.

"You have a tapered coupling. The thread should be 7/8" x 9 but I can't guess what the nut size would be....perhaps a call to buck algonquin would narrow it down to a size (+/- 1/16"). I understand the "be prepared"; at one point I had a four hour, one-way trip to work on her.

If you work with machinists, you can find the ABYC standard P-06 on the www. This covers shafting and you'll find all kinds of related info. If they work with stainless, they could give you a first hand assessmment of repairability. Personally, if it was scored to were a fingernail dragged over it was catching on most of the surface, I'd replace it. If you use the boat frequently, just replace it. That stuff isn't cheap and when it breaks, it will be a whole lot more paying the premium to expedite the work during the summer."
 
"Seems to me that there is goi

"Seems to me that there is going to be some effect of the cutlass bearing on the shaft. Is there ever a point where "polishing" becomes scoring?...and is even "polishing" acceptable?

I ask this because I do have a polished effect on the sfaft where the 4 or 5 inches of cutlass bearing contacts the shaft but there is no ridge in place......YET. So, could one eventually develop because it is getting polished?"
 
"Al:

I've always used t

"Al:

I've always used the fingernail test. If it is polishing and no significant amount of metal has been removed (no ridge), I keep on using it.

Polishing stops and scoring starts when some hard, undesirable element becomes embedded in the cutlass. I feel polishing won't evolve into scoring because you aren't "removing" anything significant. When the rifges start, the polishing has stopped."
 
"Thanks Mark,

Good to know,

"Thanks Mark,

Good to know, I have a fine gloss in that 4-5 inch zone but as much as I can try to feel a ridge...nothing I even used my electronic calipers to measure and differences but none to speak of.

Fact being, whether of not that "polishing" would be undesirable...I did not know."
 
"I think its a byproduct of th

"I think its a byproduct of the minimal friction the cutlass has. Never found it objectionable. Did see one that was discolored on the left one day but never saw the boat afterwards. I'm sure if i was leading you down the wrong path, somebody would set me straight."
 
Seems like even with the minim

Seems like even with the minimal ridge you described earlier that the shafts would not suffer any loss of strength at that level...At least thats what is SEEMS like
 
"Well mine are definitly not p

"Well mine are definitly not polished but scored.

I found some places on the web that say they can repair them. I'm going to give them a call to see what the deal. The only problem is the places I found are not local, so I would need to ship the shafts.

I'll also get some pricing on new shafts once I get all the measurements."
 
"That's a bummer.

Don&#

"That's a bummer.

Don't forget, shipping will be two ways. You may want to ask the shop you select if they can arrange the shipping and add it to the bill. Some outfits ship a lot and receive a discounted rate....never know unless you ask.

My understanding is the repair calls for the scored area to be prepped and then welded. Once sufficient material has been added, they true the shfts on a lathe and then finish them up."
 
"So I want to get some opinion

"So I want to get some opinion on my drive shaft issue. I have a 10000 pound tiara. I have 1.5 inch shafts on 1.88:1 BW Velvets powered by 350HP 454CID crusaders. A year ago I changed the packing as it was very wet and found some residue of green stuff crap in the five rings of too small round packing. I clean it up and used the correct size flat packing, 3 in all if I remember. I was able to adjust the drip to be keeping shafts cool and bilge dryer (0-1 drips a minute when not moving, and 1 or more every 5 seconds or so).

The only issue is I found what looked like an old problem on the shafts. It appeared as pitting or corrosion where the wax rings sit. It is way more then a finger nail. Being that it was an old problem and I knew I have made things better, and the boat has been fine under many hard torque situations I left it alone.

I will take another look when I finally get on the lift to be sure it has not got worse, but it is a concern.

Now these are the bigger 1 1/2 inch shafts, and I don’t really beat on the boat, but is there a test I do or any way to further examine the loss in strength?

The guy at the boatyard was saying he hits it with a big hammer and listens for a ringing sound. Can this be the guy I spend G's on for shaft replacements?

I am hoping to get another year before doing this, but also have a long summer trip coming.

Thanks,
Scott"
 
"Scott; I have the same issue

"Scott; I have the same issue, same engines, but 1 1/4" shafts and a 1.5:1 tranny ratio. Stainless pitting under the packing. I went to DSS to solve the flax wear issue and reduce further pitting. As far as shaft strength loss, can't answer that, but, I'm running them! 1.5" shafts have a lot of margin if they are Aquamet or similar alloy, even with you higher tranny ratio.
I thought the hammer trick was to find out of bronze had lost it's zinc?"
 
"Thought the hammer/ring test

"Thought the hammer/ring test was for the props, too.

DD-DSS or PSS dripless?

Scott-concur w/ DD on the margin. Know of no non-destructive tests. Big issue I see is the scoring being that noticeable will severely reduce the service life of the packing. If you don't like repacking the box in the water, you may want to consider the dripless approach like Dave did."
 
"looks like some nice reading:

"looks like some nice reading: "Roark's Formulas for Stress and Strain". They have a formula for notches.

http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/index.php/t-121094.html

PS boatyard said that if you are replacing the shaft then they cut it from inside and remove the coupler with a press in the shop. They take the shaft to a local buck algonquin dstrbr (in two pieces) get exact match, pound out and replace cutlass bearing leaving the strut in place. Now the shaft install will work and we dont need to do alignment... slips right in


PSS he still will not give a range of hours..."
 
"Scott,

That is exactly wha

"Scott,

That is exactly what I am planning to do. I got some preliminary pricing, but need the actual length to get a firm quote.

I really want them out, so I already have the sawz-all loaded for this weekend. Cut them, pull them out and measure (just add the thickess of the blade
thumbs_up.gif
"
 
"What kind of blade? dependin

"What kind of blade? depending on the metal I was told that you might need to use the cutting wheel. I love my 4" diamond blade cutting tool. I must have used that one tool soooo many times for things that you would never think of unless you are there.

PS When I was blocked up for the winter last year I was NOT able to get a staight angle to slid the shaft in, unless I dug a 5 foot deep hole in back of my boat! That was the real stopper and the $1300 per shaft for my 12 x 1 1/2 single taper shaft..."
 
"don't need to do alignmen

"don't need to do alignment????? If it were my money, I'd ensure the existing alignment was satisfactory before refloating her. Its great to leave the struts alone but you don't know unless you check.

MJL - ever cut stainless??? better have a box of blades and plenty of good cutting lubricant. You may also want to scribe a line a known distance from your coupler to a point below the "cut line" if you want an accurate measurement."
 
"Yes the boatyard said they wo

"Yes the boatyard said they would use a feeler gauge to check (dry and then few days wet), but he said that it should not need it InHisHO.

DD We dont paint shafts up north as the grow season is much shorter...

Really about the hole in back of boat... You have to be sitting really high on the blocks to get an angle to slide shafts in unless you take off the struts..."
 
12' of shaft?!?!?!??? how

12' of shaft?!?!?!??? how long is that boat?

Do they set the keel at that much slope? Any idea why?
 
"81" each...

Tiara'

"81" each...

Tiara's hull redesigned with pocket props in 1992, thats why I have the 1991...

Shaft angle was reduced, shafts closer together, larger vee...

I have a large angle on my 6.75 foot shaft..


I must not have read this until now or my memory is failing... I cannot remember which...

>>>>>
From: Scott Bytwerk [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 4:49 PM
To: Lauder, Scott: IT (NYK)
Subject: RE: 1991 3100 Open T1970

I don’t have a drawing any longer. The length is 81”, material is Aquamet 18, and I think it was a dual-taper shaft (both ends, that is). If you need to get new ones made, you have to use one of the originals as a pattern."
 
"ok - that's in the reason

"ok - that's in the reasonable range...the 12 wasn't labeled. My memory is intermittent, good thing I have a filing system.

When they block the hull, how high is the waterline at the bow, 6 ft+?"
 
"good question. They pitched i

"good question. They pitched it so that the water drains to the aft.

Found that I can get the 81" Aquamet 22, 1.5" single taper and have it fit for the split coupler that everone is talking about.

1000 shaft, +100 cutless, +140 coupler...

problem is i cannot do it in weekend on sling, so I have to pay to be blocked up...

This is sounding like a next winter project, as my new every other winter out of water plan..."
 
sounds like they pitch so the

sounds like they pitch so the water flies out the back.

Why can't you do it in the sling?

The hydraulic tool makes the cutlass job <= 1 hour (first time did it). Same tool lets you pop the props in about 15 seconds after the nuts are off. The coupler on the tapered end should behave like the prop unless severely corroded.

The other day and a half+ should cover when s--t happens???
 
"Problem is I have a "week

"Problem is I have a "weekend" in sling owed to me... I have to take double tapper shafts out and bring to shop on a weekday for a two day turnaround to fit it as single tapper with split coupler. He wants original shafts either to machine the second tapper or to ensure fit on non-tapper. Either way must be weekday. Looks like I should have done this a month ago and yard might have let it happen weekday....

I was planning to wait one more year, but now I keep dreaming about breaking shaft, at 30 knots 30 miles from shore with wife a kids.

The shaft breaks, slids out and rips off strut and tangles other prop.

Now I'm stuffing the 1.5 inch hole in engine room at sea, surveying damage and possable leaks at strut mounting, unable ride the other prop, and very large storm rides in from nowhere!

I guess I can handle it..."
 
"maybe you can find a cap that

"maybe you can find a cap that will fit the log and you can talk the yard into splitting the "weekend" across ten days? that way the shop can have a whole week. worse case, you pay for an overnight in the slings."
 
"Scott; PSS seals have a 316

"Scott; PSS seals have a 316 SS collar that locks to the shaft, preventing much rearward travel if the shaft lets go ahead of it. On my install, the collar was aft of the pitted portion of the shaft. Plus, that setup should prevent any more corrosion. Send over some pix of your pitting; we might be able to talk you out of this entire shaft replacement exercise. Those 1.5" shafts are big enought to handle a 350 hp diesel install."
 
DD I see what you are saying a

DD I see what you are saying after seeing the online install for PYI PSS. That SS collor will be aft the pits. I have some pix from last year. post tonight...
 
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