Looking for a manual for a Riva Crusader V8 210HP engine

[Hans57]

Hello to everybody on this forum, my name is Hans, living in the Netherlands, I just started to rebuild two Riva Crusader engine V8 210 HP, at the moment I don’t have to much information about the engines, both engines are seized, maybe build around 1970??, I am also looking for a manual for the V Drive when possible, I will post some pictures over here, I can make some more in depth pictures if necessary, some information about where to acquire spare parts in Europe would also be very helpful, any help is highly appreciated, thanks Hans

 

[makomark]

I believe you have 307CID small block engines....can't tell much more about the gears as there aren't many details from the photos.

Based on the picture of the GEAR ID PLate, I would suspect you have a separate gear bolted to a WALTER's V-drive. The gear is most likely an early velvet drive but the data on the plate is rather ambiguous as to which unit a given datum applies to...I'd bet any local shop that is familiar with the velvet drives can help there.

As far as the engines themselves, I'd suggest you need to find a PDF file, on the web, that is for Crusader Manual TEEC100. If you can't find the PDF, there are many sources where you can buy them. The copy I have is way too large to email...

Other items of note:
Looks like the original distributor was replaced - make sure whatever you have is marine rated.
Looks like it is raw water cooled - so if the engines have ever seen use in salt water, be leery of further use of the block
I would also suspect you have one RH and one LH engine...if so, the camshafts will be different and the drives may be as well. By 1970, GM had standardized on using a gear drive for the RH engines, which enabled use of the same distributor for either engine...
Installing a remote oil filter will make maintenance much easier...
Finally, the engine mounts appear to be standard Crusader items and, if original, are likely to need replacement...can't quite make out what is going on with the gear mounts

 

[Hans57]

I believe you have 307CID small block engines....can't tell much more about the gears as there aren't many details from the photos.

Based on the picture of the GEAR ID PLate, I would suspect you have a separate gear bolted to a WALTER's V-drive. The gear is most likely an early velvet drive but the data on the plate is rather ambiguous as to which unit a given datum applies to...I'd bet any local shop that is familiar with the velvet drives can help there.

As far as the engines themselves, I'd suggest you need to find a PDF file, on the web, that is for Crusader Manual TEEC100. If you can't find the PDF, there are many sources where you can buy them. The copy I have is way too large to email...

Other items of note:
Looks like the original distributor was replaced - make sure whatever you have is marine rated.
Looks like it is raw water cooled - so if the engines have ever seen use in salt water, be leery of further use of the block
I would also suspect you have one RH and one LH engine...if so, the camshafts will be different and the drives may be as well. By 1970, GM had standardized on using a gear drive for the RH engines, which enabled use of the same distributor for either engine...
Installing a remote oil filter will make maintenance much easier...
Finally, the engine mounts appear to be standard Crusader items and, if original, are likely to need replacement...can't quite make out what is going on with the gear mounts

Thanks for your detailed information today I finished with taking apart the first engine, I was able to make some more pictures, I have to wait for the owner to give me some more details on the engine, but maybe when you see the casting numbers you can tell more.

Tomorrow I start with the other engine and then we have to order the necessary parts,I hope that there are also some parts numbers in the manual.

For me this is the first to work on this kind of engine’s, it’s more of a hobby for me, normally I work as a volunteer at a museum on bigger marine diesel engines.

I found a manual online it is called:

Crusader Gasoline Inboard Engines 1980 thru 1992

For these models

Model 229, V-6
Model 262, V-6
Model 305, V-8
Model 350, V-8
Model 454, V-8
Model 502, V-8

Is this the one that I can use?

I would also be more then happy to pay somebody if he is willing to send me the manual by Wetransfer it’s a free service to send large files https://wetransfer.com or another service.

I can send you my e-mail address.

What I was also wondering about is that on both V-Drive they did not mark if it’s a RH or LH on the ID plate they left it open as you can see on the picture.

The engine that I was working on is RH, there is an arrow on the flywheel, so let’s see if the other engine is LH.

If some body is interested in more pictures from the rebuild of the two engines, then follow this link https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.3533952733525955&type=3 this is the album where I post all the pictures.

Thanks again for the help, regards Hans

 

[makomark]

on the gear, its an early velvet drive...the newer model number is 10-17-000-015. they are rotation sensitive and should be marked accordingly (though its pretty easy to change if necessary). I would tag both gears and v-drives to remove any doubts there.

You can probably use 95% of the 'newer' manual without any issue....that said, if you have the 307 CID engines, you will NOT find any of the specifications in the 'newer' service manual....that said, the machinist doing the work can very likely find the needed info from other sources.

The RH engine should have had the gear drive on the camshaft.

The machinist should also be able to run down casting numbers...

 

[makomark]

looking at the last few pics on the facebook link, it looks like you may have frankenstein engines, as the RH block has the one piece rear main seal...and those are late 1980's vs anything made in the 1970's.

The v-drive also looks more like a Crusader 4500 V-drive vs a Walter's unit...

and the intake port repairs on the cylinder head(s) appears to be marginal...I'd be inclined to replace them assuming there is budget available.

 

[Hans57]

looking at the last few pics on the facebook link, it looks like you may have frankenstein engines, as the RH block has the one piece rear main seal...and those are late 1980's vs anything made in the 1970's.

The v-drive also looks more like a Crusader 4500 V-drive vs a Walter's unit...

and the intake port repairs on the cylinder head(s) appears to be marginal...I'd be inclined to replace them assuming there is budget available.

Thanks for all your help I found out that this engine was build 1986-1988 ,5-0l-305-ci-marine-engine.
Regards, Hans

 

[danstap84]

Thanks for all your help I found out that this engine was build 1986-1988 ,5-0l-305-ci-marine-engine.
Regards, Hans

Hi Hans. I have the same engine and can confirm it is an early 1970s 307 CID as makomark previously mentioned. Albeit I have a Volvo Penta AQ250 sterndrive instead, for my Riva Bertram 20. I have a PDF copy of the pre 1980s Crusader engine manual if you’re still looking for one? I’d be happy to share via Google drive.

 

[Hans57]

Hi Hans. I have the same engine and can confirm it is an early 1970s 307 CID as makomark previously mentioned. Albeit I have a Volvo Penta AQ250 sterndrive instead, for my Riva Bertram 20. I have a PDF copy of the pre 1980s Crusader engine manual if you’re still looking for one? I’d be happy to share via Google drive.

Hello, thanks for your reaction and for your offer to share the manual, I would appreciate it a lot, the manual that I have is starting from 1980 thru 1992, my e-mail: [email protected]

Regards Hans

 

[danstap84]

No worries Hans. I've just sent you a wetransfer link via email. How's the restoration going otherwise?

 

[Hans57]

Thanks again, specially to Dan for sending me the manual, I will try to post some pictures and video's, I will also post a link to my Facebook page where you can find some more pictures and video's, hope you like it, today I did a test run with the first engine, the second one I am rebuilding at this moment. If some body is interested in more pictures and video's from the rebuild of the two engines, then follow this link https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.3533952733525955&type=3 this is the album where I post all the pictures.

 

[Hans57]

Thanks again, specially to Dan for sending me the manual, I will try to post some pictures and video's, I will also post a link to my Facebook page where you can find some more pictures and video's, hope you like it, today I did a test run with the first engine, the second one I am rebuilding at this moment. If some body is interested in more pictures and video's from the rebuild of the two engines, then follow this link https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.3533952733525955&type=3 this is the album where I post all the pictures.

Check out over here for the first test run https://www.facebook.com/new.beginning.3538039

 

[danstap84]

Looks great, Hans!

So it turns out my block is a 267 CID from 1979-1982 according to the casting number (and I think 1979 based on date stamp) - not the early 1970s 307 CID I thought it was!

Riva launched the Bahia Mar in 1971 and, I believe, produced in the region of 140 of them. My boat is no. 114. I’m assuming they weren’t still in production in 1979 and, therefore, my block has been replaced at some point. The fact it has a surplus EGR valve installed on the intake manifold plus a few other redundant items also indicates this.

We have yet to remove the intake manifold but it’s next on the list. It’ll be interesting to see what’s beneath; whether it’s a standard 267 (which the automotive users seem to hate online) or whether they rebored it, as I understand there’s enough in the block to achieve 307/305 spec. We’ll see what’s going on inside the heads, too.

@hans, your previous comment about your engines being 1986-1988 305s - is that based on the casting number? If they have come out of a Riva 25 Fisherman, obviously that boat was also produced in the early 1970s so if the casting number is correct, it sounds like your blocks were changed at some point as well. I’m sure you already know this. The Facebook images are super helpful - thank you.

 

[makomark]

An EGR valve screams "auto engine".... so I would bet what you have isn't the original...

 

[danstap84]

Yes I'd agree!

 

[danstap84]

@makomark - looking at Han’s pics on FB, I noticed he has meshed gears rather than a timing chain. Do you know, was this common on 305s out of the factory or likely a mod?

 

[makomark]

the standard production SBCs used in the 70's used chains to drive the camshaft on the LH engines and gears for the RH engines.

I don't do FB so cant see what was posted...

 

[danstap84]

Good to know, thanks!

I did some more digging today... my heads match the 267 block (also found out they share the same intake/exhaust valves as original 307 block, 1.72/1.50 respectively), however, my intake manifold is from a 1980 350 / Z28 Camaro engine .. hence the EGR valve and other signs of auto parts. So, she's quite the Frankenstein!

 

[makomark]

Good to know, thanks!

I did some more digging today... my heads match the 267 block (also found out they share the same intake/exhaust valves as original 307 block, 1.72/1.50 respectively), however, my intake manifold is from a 1980 350 / Z28 Camaro engine .. hence the EGR valve and other signs of auto parts. So, she's quite the Frankenstein!

I hope not with the distributor....

 

[danstap84]

It's a Delco Remy but I'm 99% sure it's not a marine one! There was a Land Rover ignition coil on the engine when I got her...

 

[makomark]

If it has a vacuum advance can, it is automotive and should NOT be on the boat...

 

[danstap84]

That it does! It's on the winter job list...

 

[makomark]

FWIW, my daughter stopped by and showed me Hans' pix...it is definitely a newer vortec SBC he has...not the original block.

And, if Hans is still current on this thread, you may want to re-read the manual that you received....to me, it appears you have the pistons installed 'backwards' for a RH engine. If you run it as it is assembled, it will work but it will be noisy.

 

[makomark]

see attached extract...

 

[Hans57]

see attached extract...

Thanks for pointing this out, but we placed them according the instructions from the piston manufacturer, at the end it’s a simple small block chevy and the engine is running smooth.

I have two more crusader engines waiting for a rebuild, Casting number 3970020 1969 à 1973 307 CID (5.0 L) 2 bolt main cap 2piece rear main and a Casting number 14010207 1980 à 1985 350 CID (5.7 L) 2 or 4 bolt main cap (truck) 1 piece main, maybe we can give it then a try.

Regards Hans

 

[makomark]

I believe you...but if you double checked with them and reiterated it is a reverse rotation marine engine, I'd think the answer would change....reverse rotation engines were pretty much abandoned by GM (for standard production products) almost 30 years ago...

 

[rivaengine]

I

Thanks for your detailed information today I finished with taking apart the first engine, I was able to make some more pictures, I have to wait for the owner to give me some more details on the engine, but maybe when you see the casting numbers you can tell more.

Tomorrow I start with the other engine and then we have to order the necessary parts,I hope that there are also some parts numbers in the manual.

For me this is the first to work on this kind of engine’s, it’s more of a hobby for me, normally I work as a volunteer at a museum on bigger marine diesel engines.

I found a manual online it is called:

Crusader Gasoline Inboard Engines 1980 thru 1992

For these models

Model 229, V-6
Model 262, V-6
Model 305, V-8
Model 350, V-8
Model 454, V-8
Model 502, V-8

Is this the one that I can use?

I would also be more then happy to pay somebody if he is willing to send me the manual by Wetransfer it’s a free service to send large files https://wetransfer.com or another service.

I can send you my e-mail address.

What I was also wondering about is that on both V-Drive they did not mark if it’s a RH or LH on the ID plate they left it open as you can see on the picture.

The engine that I was working on is RH, there is an arrow on the flywheel, so let’s see if the other engine is LH.

If some body is interested in more pictures from the rebuild of the two engines, then follow this link https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.3533952733525955&type=3 this is the album where I post all the pictures.

Thanks again for the help, regards Hans

Is the number 551 on the engine block the engine number? I'm trying to find the engine number on my thermo electron 270 model from a riva boat, the metal plate is missing, it has 4 small screws, I might have stored it somewhere but I can't find it atm and I need the engine number, how many letters is it supposed to be? Mine has two dots and a three digit number like yours has.

 

[makomark]

The "551" in Hans' pix is a casting number.

A TE Model 270 is a 350CID SBC...if you are looking for internal parts, any good machine shop should be able to source them...if you need something else, you can likely get it from an alternative marine source.

 

[rivaengine]

The "551" in Hans' pix is a casting number.

A TE Model 270 is a 350CID SBC...if you are looking for internal parts, any good machine shop should be able to source them...if you need something else, you can likely get it from an alternative marine source.

Ok thank you, I am particurarly searching for the engine serial number, I was told it was somewhere on the block itself but I can't find it, the whole boat was stripped and parts stored for 20+ years so I'm having a hard time finding the metal plate with the serial number.

 

[makomark]

I have never seen a crusader branded engine that had the serial number attached to the block...they use an ID plate that is riveted to the flywheel cover, under the timing inspection hole.

You may get lucky searching the title paperwork....if that yields no fruit, I'd say you are likely out of luck.

 

[rivaengine]

I have never seen a crusader branded engine that had the serial number attached to the block...they use an ID plate that is riveted to the flywheel cover, under the timing inspection hole.

You may get lucky searching the title paperwork....if that yields no fruit, I'd say you are likely out of luck.

Ah ok I see... thanks for the info, the id plate is fixed with screws on these engines, hope I can find it.