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Electric fuel pump and switch...

H

hippie

Regular Contributor
I did not want to be bothersome but I can't figure out this fuel pump and switch. I have a 1987 350 Mercruiser, what color wires go to the new two pole fuel safety switch. Should be two wires to the one pole and from the other pole, what color wire goes to the starter (Carter). Thank you.
 
Yes, I'm installing the electric fuel pump and the fuel safety switch that operates off of oil pressure. I got two black wires that attach to the fuel pump. One is ground and the other attaches to the wire from the switch. But what wires go to the switch and which one goes to the starter. Thank you, Bob
 
A wire from the "R" lug on the starter solenoid goes to the pumps + side. a wire coming off the + side of the dist goes to 1 side of the switch, the other side of the switch goes to the + side of the fuel pump.
 
Well, we hooked up the switch and fuel pump today. We then tried to bump the crank around to TDC so we could put our distributer in. But NO GO as always! When I turned the key to crank position it would try but made an awfull sound. It was like when a battery is dead and you get the clicking noise from the starter. But both batteries are less than a year old and were recently charged. The noise from the starter area was clicking but only louder and a more direct clang, clang, clang. The power steering belt and alternator belt were moving about 1/2" at every clang. Before you think a battery, we had all the plugs out so no compression would build up. Also, when I crank the engine the voltmeter goes from 12V down to the bottom which I think indicates a direct short in the starting system as opposed to the running system. When the key is turned to the run position then the voltmeter shows 12V again.

Please offer any and all advice, thank you, Bob
 
...when I crank the engine the voltmeter goes from 12V down to the bottom which I think indicates a direct short in the starting system as opposed to the running system. When the key is turned to the run position then the voltmeter shows 12V again.
Click to expand...

Is this engine new? If the starter has a direct short there would have been a blown breaker and melted battery wire insulation. The starter is drawing alot of current causing the gauge to drop to "0" and is not engaging properly. In the run position there is very little load.

Items to check: the starter may be shot, battery weak, internally corroded battery cables or a tight engine. New batteries can be old when bought. You have to read the date of mfg. on the battery. Example: B09 code is Feb. 2009. Never buy a battery off the shelf over 6 months old.

I would start w/the battery cables; clean cable ends and connection surfaces. Skin back some insulation on the positive & negative cables at the battery and look for green or black corrosion; replace if you find any. The starter should come out for inspection and testing. The solenoid may not be fully engaging the bendix. Let us know what you find.
 
Your sure the motor is not siezed ? If you cant turn the motor manually then yank the drive off and try it again still can't turn it then it for sure it's siezed .
 
The engine is brand new, never run. We put oil in the cylinders, valve guides, filled the oil pan and left the plugs out. This was to make it crank easier and avoid any wear. The starter, starter selinoid and slave selinoid are all brand new. They all worked perfect 3 months ago when we tried to start the old motor. We switched them to the new block and only tried to bump it around to install the distributer. (that was yesterday).
The wires looked fine but the copper can still be rotted anywhere inside the insulation and not be seen. (I had a boat partitally sink by a bilge pump wire being eaten out).
I'll check the wires and connections again to be sure. Or it being a new engine do you think it is just tight and not spinning due to that? Thank you again, Bob
 
Just a thought here based on the "clang clang clang" and the movement of the V belt that you describe:
This to me sounds as though the starter solenoid is kicking the pinion drive out, making main contact, but is then immediately taking itself back out of the loop.

This extra terminal on the solenoid (if so equipped) is a carry over from the automotive side, I believe.
This was intended to supply full current for the ignition side only during cranking only.... a very light load, I might add!

The last thing to occur within the starter motor solenoid, is the main contact closure!
(this is accomplished via a solenoid field winding!)

The contact closure does two things when the "R" or "I" terminal is being used.
It contacts the large load for the armature...... and excites the "R" or "I" terminal for a light ignition load!

Point being......, if you are trying to excite a fuel pump with this (start by-pass mode), and are not using it to trigger a seperate relay, the load may..... I say MAY be too much on this terminal!

So the question for me would be........ I wonder if the load could be taking the solenoid back out of the loop, so to speak, the moment that the "R" or "I" load is realized.
This may explain the clang clang clang..... and jump jump jump that you are seeing at the V belt.
the power steering belt and alternator belt were moving about 1/2" at every clang.
Click to expand...
If you can make it do this each and every time, this tells me that the starter motor is engaging momentarily...... but in sort of a perpetual "I want to engage.... now I don't want to remain engaged", sort of thing.

This would be very similar to a dead battery clicking sound.
The reason that it clicks with a dead battery, is because once the contacts close, the current demand pulls enough power that the solenoid winding is forced to drop out of the loop.... and the contacts break open! The cycle repeats itself!
The difference in YOUR scenario, may be that there IS enough power to bump the engine over until the magnetic winding becomes too weak due to the additional "R" or "I" terminal load!

I may be way off base here.... but I sure hope it gives you something to consider.

I'd disconnect the fuel pump lead from the "R" or "I" terminal, and see what happens!
If this solves the issue, then you'd best install a relay for the fuel pump for the "Start By-Pass" mode.
(this places a much smaller load on the "R"or "I" terminal)

Once running, the oil pressure switch takes care of the fuel pump power.
The oil pressure switch can also trigger the realy if you want it to!
Two birds.... one stone!

PS, don't be surprised at the volt meter reading during cranking..... it's pretty normal to see a drop here.
It's also why the auto manufacturers came up with the start by-pass originally..... and some marine systems incorporate this as well.
 
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so you didn't try to turn the motor manually ? Simple yes or no ?

Reason i am still asking is there is alot that can happen to a brand new motor in 3 months.

If the drive is hooked up to the motor that could be frozen. Then it would prevent the motor from turning.

Again did you try to turn the motor manually, yes or no ?
 
Last time I had a solenoid apart, the R terminal is excited by the same disc that passes the current from the BAT lug to the Starter's lug; the high current path. The hardware will easily pass 10 amps for minute.

I'd be more inclined to think the solenoid is wrong or defective. Rick's observation is like the pull-in winding gets current but the hold-in coil doesn't. Too bad none of the marine service manuals provide this level of detail.
 
guyjg said:
Rcardo:
Excellent observation! I'll remember this one.
Click to expand...
Well, guyjg and Mark....., I chewed on this after I posted. I may have egg on my face and be wrong, as I think Mark made a good point re; how the "r" or "i' terminal is powered. If it is power via the copper disc, then my theory is incorect.... I believe.
Need to see an internal schematic of the solenoid.

But something is both allowing and causing it to clang clang clang as though the bump bump bump is allowing it to turn the engine over some.
This is what's odd!
 
OK men, I was at the boat today and accomplished nothing! The batteries are each at 12.48, so I then checked the starter and it has 12.46 so all is good there. We ran a jumper cable from the batterys' negative to the starter and tried to crank it over. Using the key on #1 battery I just got clicking as was the case with #2 battery and then with both on, just clicking. Then my associate used a screwdriver and jumped the starter and the engine cranked over sloooowly and this is with no plugs. BUT, after only 5 seconds of cranking we had 3 black ground wires catch fire! We then took all wires off the alternator and the results were the same. Clicking when using our key and slooow cranking when you jump the starter and melted wires if cranking over 3-4 seconds. All wire ends are attached where they should be. We are out of ideas, please help. Thank you, Bob
 
The engine is being stubborn about turning over as indicated by the hot wires--lots of current pull. Perhaps it's time to turn the engine over several times by hand as Chiefalen has suggested. Is the starter an OE one or a small high torque type? Charge the batteries to 13+ volts before trying next time.
 
We were going to turn it by hand but we can't because the new engine doesn't have the crankcase nut in front of the harmonic balancer (new to us but apparently they are now made that way). I will recharge the batteries but, do you think it is due to being a new engine? We all thought there must be a short somewhere and we were tearing the harness apart looking for the short!

We stopped work on it because we do not know where to go or what to do next. Please give us some advice.

Thank you, Bob
 
DO NOT use the front crankshaft bolt to turn this, or any, engine over.... period! If you were to break this bolt......... well, you get my point!
If you must use this bolt, do so in the reverse engine rotation ONLY! Worst case, you have a bolt that needs to be re-tightened!

I too think that you need to get a feel for how easily or hard this engine is to turn over.
It you can turn it with a normal force (a strap wrench, for example), then likely your starter motor is shot!

Yes to the PMGR or HTGR starter motors. These kick but over the non-gear reduction motors.

.
 
I would start by removing the OD. Next, if it won't turn over install new battery cables made from welding cable to carry the current load. You may have to pull the engine to turn it by hand w/the flywheel.
 
It is supposedly brand new, I bought it with that understanding. I assume the valves were set by GMC (Chevy Motors) in Detroit, Michigan. It was purchased from Michigan Motorz (I'll never buy from that outfit again!). My original 350 I junked 3 months ago and bought this long block. I switched everything from the old engine to this one because the starter, alternator, distributer, everything was new. The engine turns over very slowly when the starter is jumped from the poles on the red wire to the yellow/red wire. This is without plugs and when the small 16 guage black wires get hot and start to melt. All 3 wires melted about 3-4 inches from the actual ground bolt.

Hope this helps and I'll do as you say.
http://www.michiganmotorz.com/350ci-base-marine-engine-19871995-replacement-p-122.html

Thank you, Bob
 
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Did you ever prime the oil system?

On the starter solenoid, I found so old GM material. Both the hold-in and pull-in coil are fed by the small "S" lug on the solenoid. The hold-in coil terminals at case ground and the pull-in coil terminates on the big "STARTER" stud. Sounds like the hold-in coil wasn't getting sufficient current to do its job. Very possible to be coupled to the 'smoking wire' syndrome.

why did you junk the other 350 block?
 
For crying out loud, Bob (said with love) ........ get off the pot, and use the tried and proven P of E (process of elimination)!
The P of E will not let you down if you were to systematically take one item at a time....., and either eliminate it, or find it to be part of your issue!
I think that you're spinning your wheels in the sand in your current direction.... and I hate to see you do that! :D


I don't care if you use the crank bolt in reverse direction, or if you use a strap wrench..... Does the engine turn over easily?

Oil priming is certainly advisable for any new engine........ but this is very likely not the reason for this engine not turning over unless something else is incorrect!

Replace the frick'n starter motor...... at $90 or so, you can pick up a HTGR/PMGR motor that will kick a$$ over the OEM....Having a spare starter (if it turns out that yours is OK) is never a bad idea!
..... or borrow a known-to-be-good starter motor!

Have you looked at both Positive and Negative battery cables AND the terminals at the ends of these cables?
(your small black leads should NOT be supplying any portion of the starter motor's negative path)
Are you cables heavy enough? (not cables from the auto parts store!)


BTW, Bob....., MM has a good reputation from what I read! If you have an issue that is a result of something by them......, I'm sure that they will take care of you.

.
 
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The last motor i helped install from MM had the valves way too tight i mean tight.

Did i say tight, well they were tight.

HAH loosen em up your supposed to set them up. Then try the starter again.
 
Chief, if that's the case, someone needs to let Roger (or someone there), know about it.
However, I'd think that if the adjustment was too tight, all that would happen (short of running damage) would be several valves not seating... of which would leak cylinder pressure. Yes/No?
 
Rick, You say to let Michigan Motorz know, how are you going to do that? They won't even answer the phone!! or respond to an email (I sent them 6 emails already and recieved no answers). As far as the engine, my helper and I have officially given up, surrendered, called it quits. We have been working on this since July 5, 2010. How much can a person take?

I thank all of you for your help but it wasn't meant to be. Bob
 
Bring the boat to BT doctur and let him work on it, and i'll come over for free and help him, he gets paid not me.

I say this in front of g-d and the whole world there is no way we can't get it running.

I will get it running with his help or die trying.

Rick i wrote about this motor a 5.0 long block from MM before on other sites.

Drove my small circle of friends crazy. Couldn't get it above 2500 rpms. I mean we replaced everything with known good stuff off running boats.

Finally after weeks on the water in the middle of the Raritan bay, like on the 20th time out, i took my personal tool suitcase, and i yanked off the valve covers with 4 men yelling at me. All different languanges , i understood every curse word thrown at me.

I backed off the springs, i couldn't believe how tight they were.

I performed the running method, oil all over my face.

Put the last cover on and hooked back up the shift converter, and to this day it runs like a scalded cat.

I couldn't believe it myself it was the last thing i would have thought myself.

All the parts we switched we put on the known good running motor not one part was bad, still on my friends boats the parts, never a failure.

Rick something ain't right, till we get it right this is a cluster f--k.

I don't care if we got to yank the motor out and tear it down to the last bolt i swear i will find the problem.

Actually it's a good time for me right now before school starts for the younger kids, my daughter just got engaged and the son i just drove to New Haven conn. he started collage sunday.

So there is a lull right now for me. How long it will last i don't know.
 
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