Distributor help for chrysler 440 marine engine reverse rotation

[RicardoMarine]

Agreed.
However, I think that we'd be hard pressed to find a Rev Rotation SBC Twin Gear driven camshaft today.
Most that we'll see, will be chain/sprocket driven, and with an opposite helical cut at the cam and distributor gears.


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[captain_ed]

Good deal. I assume Mallory installed some type of thrust bearing inside their unit to absorb the thrust load.

Jeff

I used the original thrust bearing with this distributor. It was a custom ordered extra long shaft distributor that will work with the thrust bearing.

 

[fastjeff]

Good! That's gotta work great.

Jeff

 

[Big Dee]

Hi Guys

Sorry I'm new here so apologies for gate crashing your post. I have placed a post here re my problem without much luck. Looks like I have a counter rotating 440. I purchased it in pieces and its been from one shop to another before I got it. Problem is that the guys who had it before me purchased a new camshaft and they have been given the wrong one - its ofor a normal rotating (clockwise) motor and the distributor gear doesn't mesh. It doesn't help that I'm from South Africa, so no luck with parts from this side. We havent been able to find one through the net. Any assistance would be apprecaited

 

[BiLLyP73Resorter]

Hey there, I know this is an old post, but I ran across it while looking for some other information. I have a 1973 Century Resorter inboard with a 440 Chrysler in it and it still had the OEM distributor with points, condenser, ballast resistor.....etc. Even after new condenser, ballast resistor, and points and setting the dwell by the book - the boat still started VERY HARD every time and would periodically shut down after running for a few minutes. Installing new parts and tweaking seemed to be a yearly ritual that I was ready to part with. A friend put me in touch with an E-Bay "all-in-one" electronic distributor with the built in electronic "Brain Box". The price was like $128 I think - clearly a Chinese knock-off. I purchased it and it appeared to be very well made. I ran into the same problem here with the short shaft. Through forums such as this, I quickly understood my dilemma.

I initially thought about making a longer shaft and installing it but I could not remove the shaft from the reluctor assembly on the head - it is all potted together rather nicely and rather permanently. So, I took an even easier route and just made my shaft longer. The shaft is 1/2" so I used a short stub of 1/2" drill rod to make my adapter. I had my machinist at work make a small adapter that just lengthened the distributor shaft the exact amount needed. I affixed it to the end with a roll pin and ground both sides of the shaft flush. There is no way for the roll pin to come out because of the sleeve it is in, and I made the fit a "line fit" - size for size. The finished product looks amazing, installed effortlessly, and the boat starts like a dream and runs even better.

This is my very first post, so I'm not totally up on how to post photos and such, but I do have photos of the adapter, a sketch of the adapter I had made with dimensions, and photos of the finished product (assembly) I'd be willing to share with any.

Had I known this was such a common problem, I would have made a few extra adapters at the time and just shared them with anyone else in the same situation for postage and a "thank you".

Great forum guys. -BiLLy

 

[captain_ed]

Good deal. I assume Mallory installed some type of thrust bearing inside their unit to absorb the thrust load.

Jeff

My starboard engine used the original thrust collar/bearing. That distributor was custom built with a longer shaft to use the original collar/bearing.

Captain Ed

 

[RicardoMarine]

Best to start a new thread for your particular issue/questions!

.

Hi Guys

Looks like I have a counter rotating 440. I purchased it in pieces and its been from one shop to another before I got it. Problem is that the guys who had it before me purchased a new camshaft and they have been given the wrong one - its ofor a normal rotating (clockwise) motor and the distributor gear doesn't mesh.

As for the bolded text above.......

An engine that rotates Clockwise would be a REVERSE Rotation Engine.
(engine rotation is always determined as though viewing the crankshaft from the flywheel end)

Keep in mind that the Reverse Rotation Engine camshaft may be twin gear driven, or it may be chain/sprocket driven.
If twin gear driven, the camshaft rotation remains as though it was a Std Left Hand Rotation engine........ of which will affect the distributor gear arrangement.





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[510mopar]

Hi Guys

Sorry I'm new here so apologies for gate crashing your post. I have placed a post here re my problem without much luck. Looks like I have a counter rotating 440. I purchased it in pieces and its been from one shop to another before I got it. Problem is that the guys who had it before me purchased a new camshaft and they have been given the wrong one - its ofor a normal rotating (clockwise) motor and the distributor gear doesn't mesh. It doesn't help that I'm from South Africa, so no luck with parts from this side. We havent been able to find one through the net. Any assistance would be apprecaited

Hi

if you can email me the following I can guide you with what to do.
Is this single or twin engine application?
Send picture of rear of crankshaft clearly showing the cross hatch pattern where the rear seal rides
picture of camshaft where oil drive gear meshes
do you have the distributor/oil pump drive gear from the original cam?
do you have the original cam? if so picture of it showing gear area
List any other parts you may need or want

Here is a pic of a complete running 383 closed cooling I just sent to Sweden.

email it to me at [email protected]

Dan

 

[Doug Doty]

I just dropped you a note last eve. but not sure the addy. was correct, what is the availability of your adapter spacers for doing this exhaust setup, what is the latest on getting two sets of these. ???

Doug...

 

[jacb]

Very interesting thread. I stumbled across this web page when I searched Google for “Mopar 440 Helical cut amshaft gear drive”.

I am in the process of specking out a road going 440 build that will use sequential fuel injection .... the EFI requires a camshaft trigger. I don’t want to use an Accel style dual sync distributor (for various reasons). The motor will be used in an environment where a timing cover should be used, making belt drives difficult. So the choice comes down to a true double roller timing chain or gear drives.

The case against gear drives is that they make a lot of noise (a whine) and impart harmonics, but I noticed that all the available gear drive kits use straight cut spur gears. These are known to be noisy, just think aboutthe noise of straight cut transmissions! So my question was why hasn’t somebody come up with a helical cut (or even herringbone cut) gear drives for the 440? Well it appears that Chrysler did!

Has anyone heard these reverse 440’s running? Do they have the same distinctive whine and have there been any harmonic issues anyone knows about?

 

[510mopar]

Hi
look at a Ford EDIS8 system. You can avoid the cam sync and distributor by using this. Also I have used coil over plugs instead of the dual wasted spark coils to further clean up the engine. I do not have a distributor, or wires and the ECU can figure out the signal or PIP from the EDIS8.
I put the 36-1 trigger wheel on the hub of the 4 groove pulley. Before mounting the gear I put the pulley on the harmonic balancer and into the lathe. I just skinned the pulley hub to true it up. Measure the hub at that point and cut a Fort 4.7 toothed wheel to that hole size, set it on and welded it up. Blasted and painted you would not know its even there. The pick up mounts to the 2 lower TC cover bolts.
I am working on a system that bolts to a 4 barrel manifold, used 4 x 55 Lb high Z injectors and a 85mm Throttle body, this will feed a 375 HP 440 Chrysler.
I just set up one last week and it runs amazing compared to a Carb. Just hit the key and within 2 revolutions cold it starts and idles.
These 440's with an RV cam and 1.6 rockers to open the valves a bit more will idle flawlessly at 600 RPM and allow smooth shifts, especially with the Mercruiser Bravo drives I have on my day cruiser.
Read up on the EDIS, it is a great system.
Enjoy
Dan

 

[jacb]

Thanks 510Mopar

There is some good stuff there and it will take some time to read up on the EDIS8 System .... Haven't been there yet.

You didn't t comment on my question about the noise of a helical cut gear drive compared with a straight cut gear set such as the Milodon unit.

Would a two part gear drive impart more harmonics than a three or four part gear drive? ..... Has this proved to be an issue in real wold use? (It was at the NASCAR Level!).

My cam timing issue is simply how to mount the cam signal pick up for the "sequential" EFI if I don't use a timing cover ... Ie in the case of a Belt drive..... The gear drive cover wold be great, very accurate and ideal if it wasn't for the noise and possible harmonics issues.

How does the EDIS8 manage without a cam signal if it is sequential?

 

[Doug Doty]

I dealt with a Jesel belt drive and cam sync sensor by drilling the upper sprocket for an embedded magnet and using 2 original timing cover bolts above to hang a bracket down in front of the magnet and hold the sensor on a previous drag race turbo setup.

 

[510mopar]

The original helical cut gears on the 413 and other HD truck engines were quiet. problem was the cam turned the other way so unless you grind a special cam, options are limited to only 2 very low lift truck cams, I have them both somewhere here.
The 4 gear drives are noisy, even the one that states its quiet. I tried, and removed them for a good cloyes 1/4" tooth double roller. Now they are all I use.
With a crank sensor you do not have to worry about cam drive slop.
If you do want dual sync cam drive just get a distributor from the 440 lean burn. It has not mechanical advance and it has 2 VR pickups in it. This works well for full sequential, and about $20 on ebay.
I did drill the flywheel of one engine 1/2 through with 8 holes and had a pick up and the flat cast iron of the block and the pass side of a 440. It worked well. Just a pain unless you are building from scratch. The EDIS fixed all my problems.
Go to Megasquirt manual and read the ignition section of the EDIS. It explains it well.
good luck.

 

[mountainhorse]

Make sure you are talking about Appples-to-Apples...

The Chrysler Marine gear drive was a 2 gear drive... where the cam rotatates OPPOSITE to the crank. Do not confuse this with typical Mopar BB Gear drives where that use idler gears between the cam and crank gears, in those drives, the cam turns the SAME rotation as the crank.

After much research, I've found that the only one of the RB engines that ran a gear drive is the 413E... which was a Heavy-Duty, lower output engine with a lot of different parts in it... that is what is shown in the pics on the first page.

On the Reverse rotation Chrysler RB engines (AKA Big block (tall deck) or "Wedge" motor)... 383, 413, 426, 440 ...Lots to consider

I'm building up 7 of the Chrysler M413D engines (Dual 4bbl carb from factory).

Lots to consider with the camshafts...

No one makes new Reverse rotation RB camshafts anymore... used ones are hard to find and often have the oil pump gear worn on them.

Not possible to regrind a standard rotation cam for use in a reverse engine even when using the reversing gear drive.

With the oiis today that lack ZDDP and the better control you can get from a Roller Cam...AND, the evolution of technology/designs of cams... I've elected to have billet steel Reverse Rotation Camshafts made for the projects (3 of the engines are Reverse, 3 are std on a twin engine application).

My decision is if I want to use the 2-gear, Chrysler Gear drives and turn the Reverse engine camshaft in the same direction as the crank and use off the shelf available hardened oil-pump/distributor drive with bronze gears... or have custom gears cut for the oil-pump/distributor drive as the reverse rotation oil-pump/distributor drives are no longer available. Or do I look long and hard for some good used oil-pump/distributor drives and use those... either way, I'm making custom camshafts....PRICEY!!, but in context with the cost of the engines overall... worth it IMO.

For distributors... I've elected to go with the stock distributors and have them completely rebuilt...using points and hidden CDi boxes for original appearance.


More to come as I progress.



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[mhuppertz]

The purpose of that thrust collar is to hold the oil pump drive gear down on the reverse engine, it is not really need at all on the standard rotation engine. Since the cam turns in the opposite direction, but the oil pump must turn in the same direction the gear is cut opposite on the cam shaft and the oil pump drive gear. This makes it want to rise up, the thrust collar holds it down. Without the thrust collar it would drive itself upward destroying the distributor in a short period of time. The distributor has weights in it that are directional sensitive, you cannot reverse the rotation as you will not have any advance.
Basically you have 2 options for the reverse engine. A factory electronic ignition system, or, if you can find one, an aftermarket reverse direction with a long shaft to make up for the thrust collar, I have never seen one. Also the 383/400 distributor has a shaft with a slightly shorter length than a 440. They are 3 7/8", a 440 is 4 1/8" So mixing them up won't work either.

Shortly I will be posting a completely programmable, distributor less ignition system upgrade for the 383,400,440 engines that can be used in either rotation. It works great and with a laptop, or even a smart phone, you can change the timing curve, specs anyway you want. I am using this in our fuel injection system.

Anyway, do not put a distributor in the reverse engine without the thrust collar. You could always take the distributor to a good auto electric shop that has a distributor machine and have it cleaned and set up. The old Ma Chrysler stuff was well built, but it all need love sometime.

Good luck.

Thank you so much for this info. I had surmised that the cam gear had to be cut to correct the rotation for the oil pump and distributor, but I couldn't find any info on that.