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erich

Regular Contributor
"I have a slight oil leak at t

"I have a slight oil leak at the front of one my 1990 Crusader 454 engines. It is probably from the crankshaft seal. The Crusader manual says it can be replaced without removing the front cover by removing the belts and pulleys, removing the tortional damper with tool J-23523-E, carefully prying out the old seal and then installing a new seal using tool number J-22102. Are these special tools really needed to do this job? It is a DIYer type of job or one that is best left to a professional?

Thanks in advance for any info.

Erich"
 
"..."Are these special too

"..."Are these special tools really needed to do this job?"

No. All you need is a large pipe nipple, a light hammer, and some patience. Be sure NOT to cock the seal when you start tapping it in.

..."It is a DIYer type of job or one that is best left to a professional?"

Getting the damper pulley off requires space and a puller. (Auto Zone will rent you one, free.) Ditto jamming the pulley back on--don't even think of hammering it on!

If the above is all new to you, better hire a pro. If not, have at it!

Jeff"
 
"Erich:

You can do it but i

"Erich:

You can do it but it's more work than it first appears. Some suggesions.

i) Determine whether its the crank oil seal or the timing cover gasket that's leaking.
ii) An impact driver makes damper removal much easier.
iii) Make sure you remove the large washer behind the damper bolt before you apply the puller.
iv) If adhesive was used on the old oil seal, it may be stuck in the timing cover pretty good. A few whacks in the right places may be required to dislodge it. Avoid buggering up the timing cover in the process.
v) The timing cover gasket is hard to replace and may leak if not installed carefully. It may need to be compressed a little in order to get the timing cover back on. Get some RTV, follow the instructions that come with the gasket, and be sure to clean oil from all surfaces before reinstalling.

Best wishes,

Major Tom"
 
"One item to add - if you chan

"One item to add - if you change the crank seal, make sure you lube the sealing surface when you reinstall the new one. A thin, teflon-based grease should be adequate; motor oil will work. If you don't, the seal can be damaged during a dry start and then you get to redo the job."
 
"Thanks for all the replies.

"Thanks for all the replies. As Tom points out, I need to verify that it is in fact the crank seal that is leaking and not the gasket. I also want to find out just how much it is leaking. A little oil added to the bilge water can look a lot worse than it may be. A few oil absorbent pads under the engine and maybe an oil boom at the low point may be good enough for the season and leave this for winter work.

Any guess on what it may cost to have a real mechanic do the job?

Thanks,
Erich"
 
"A couple hours labor at about

"A couple hours labor at about $90 to $100 an hour....Hell, try it yourself!

Agreed completely on the quantity of oil being spilled. As I have learned over the years, a small quantity of oil makes a very big spill.

Jeff"
 
""a real mechanic". I

""a real mechanic". I like that..
too bad, all the real mechanics are not on the internet!
A couple of comments, since I have been into this same job a few months ago, on a 454 in the boat. First off, not all boats will permit you decent access while in the boat. Hopefully yours has access; you will need to be able to remove the crank pulleys, with enough room to use the dampener pully tool that Major Tom talks to. You use a steering wheel puller for this part, threading into the middle part of the dampener. Do not use a gear puller.
One other note; I've found the round oil seal, when it goes, to throw the oil around, since that leak hits the dampener. If the gasket goes, then oil runs down the front of the engine, usually. Either way the dampener has to come off. If the dampener seal surface is a mess, you can buy a cheap, push on, liner. They work."
 
"Dave,

Perhaps I should hav

"Dave,

Perhaps I should have put "real mechanic" in quotes also.

There is plenty of room in front of the engine, so getting a wheel puller on there should not be a problem.

There was some oil film in front of the engine, but most appeared to have possibly run down the front of the oil pan and then towards the back where it dripped off. I didn't notice the oil in the bilge until a few days after about a 5 hour run. More investigating needs to be done to determine the source of the leak.

What is this liner that you refer to?

Thanks,
Erich"
 
"Felpro 16205 is what i've

"Felpro 16205 is what i've used on the BBC. If/when you take off the timing chain cover, make sure you use RTV on the bottom edge of the seal that goes against the oil pan, in addition to the areas indicated by the instructions."
 
I assume you have checked your

I assume you have checked your oil level. If you have too much oil in the engine it will leak out. I speak from personal experience. Had a diaphram go on a fuel pump and put about 5 gallons of gasoline into the engine. It didn't stay long.

Chuck
 
"Dave,
The Felpro 16205 appea

"Dave,
The Felpro 16205 appears to be an O ring according to this site and others that call it a harmonic balancer repair sleeve. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Fel-Pro-Harmonic-Balancer-Repair-Sleeve-16205-Che vy-GMC_W0QQitemZ120419996986QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20090514?IMSfp=TL090514142011r3 6897

So does this sleeve insert into a groove in the back of the balancer/damper?

Chuck,
The oil level is not overfull, but is not down much either, leading me to think that the leak is not that bad. Like I said before, this needs to be checked further for the source and rate of leak.

Thanks,
Erich"
 
"THat must an end view of the

"THat must an end view of the sleeve. It does include locktite for adhesion. This fixes rusty/pitted surfaces on the dampener. But, you are not there yet, until inspection time."
 
"Mark,

Thanks for that link

"Mark,

Thanks for that link. All the images are the same whether it is for the sleeve or the sleeve installation tool. I called them and was told they don't have pictures for evey part, so just have that generic one. But each sleeve looks like one of those 4 cylinders. I now have a better idea of what it is and that it goes around the existing hub of the balancer, thereby slightly increasing its diameter and providing a better seal. Correct?? Is the proper sleeve I would use on a 1990 Crusader 454 the MS230 which is listed for a GM 454 7.4L Chev?

Thanks,
Erich"
 
"Those sleeves are designed to

"Those sleeves are designed to go over the "male" rotating item that has a lip seal on it. As you deduced, the sleeve is that very thin cylinder with the rolled lip on it.

Though it does increase the OD, it real purpose is to eliminate the grooving (OD reduction) that causes many leaks in those areas. Much more cost effective than replacing the part or having a machinist restore the original ID.

You part number appears correct, I'm sure they would verify it before you ordered once you determine if it is needed. Also, the 16205 felpro parts are on both of my balancers.

If you have access to a press, installation is straight forward. If not, it would be easiest just to take the balancer to a machinist and let them do it."
 
"I may have been lucky, but a

"I may have been lucky, but a little block of wood and a 16oz hammer is all I needed. It's a thin section, and won't take a lot of pressure anyway."
 
"I've found the press is e

"I've found the press is easier to get the seal on the first time. The wooden block and even a large socket will work if you are patient. they are just so unforgiving... if they go off square, time for a new one.

I don't think it was luck, just a well thought out solution to a problem at hand."
 
"Oh, the seal. I was thinking

"Oh, the seal. I was thinking the repair sleeve. My bad.. Yes! I've noted the rock and roll issue inserting the seal.."
 
"I think makomark was referrin

"I think makomark was referring to the sleeeve and not the seal, as he said to take the balancer to a machinist. So a large pipe nipple of large socket can be used to istall the seal, and a block of wood can be used to install the sleeve. In both cases it is important to drive them straight in or on.

Thanks again...now to determine what is leaking.

Erich"
 
"The AFUA was mine - bad words

"The AFUA was mine - bad words, again...Should have been seal..I've seen a couple whacked with a modested sized hammer that were not sitting square and they 'crushed' a bit...yes, I've messed one up, too...had no mandrel and was in a rush.

If you use pipe, make sure it is clean and square."
 
"Went down to the boat this ev

"Went down to the boat this evening and first wiped the front of the engine clean. I then ran it for about 30 minutes. Oil leak in the front appears to be centered (see attached photo if it uploads OK). No leak around the sides from the timing case gasket that I can see. So I feel pretty sure it is the crackshaft seal that is leaking. How difficult is it to remove the bolt that hold the harmonic balancer on? This is the port (LH) engine which has a clockwise rotation when viewed from the balancer end. I assume the bolt removal will be opposite to the engine rotation.

You guys and this BB are great. Thank you!

Erich
284851.jpg
oil leak
 
"If you ran it at idle, I'

"If you ran it at idle, I'd say you doing good detective work.

An impact wrench is ideal for removing that bolt. (The bolts are all right hand thread, independent of the engine rotation.) Same wrench will come in handy for using the balancer removing tool. If not, there is usually enough friction to let a breaker bar do the job. Make sure the washer comes out with the bolt or the balancer won't budge.

What size is the belt on the raw water pump? Asking only because it appears to be sitting down fairly deep in the grooves. finally, do you get "belt dust" under the pulleys, on the bilge floor (in a fat line running parallel to the belts?"
 
"I don't know what that se

"I don't know what that seawater pump belt size is, but I don't believe I am getting belt dust from it. I will double check that this evening. But I did notice quite a bit from the other belt in the area near the circulating water pump, most likely because the belt was too loose. When/if I do this seal job, it would be a good time to replace both belts anyway.

Thanks for the info regarding that bolt removal.

Erich"
 
"On the subject of the balance

"On the subject of the balancer/dampener; There is a special tool that summit, PAW, etc sell that is very useful for INSTALLING the dampener. It pulls the hub in, using a bearing and threaded shaft. Pretty cheap to buy, and a good idea to get one. You don't want to hammer the outside of these dampeners, since there is a layer of rubber that could be damaged in the process. If you don't pull in the dampener to the correct location, belt line up will be a problem.
I can't be sure looking at the pix if that is a seal leak or a gasket leak. If the seal, I would be strongly tempted to attempt a R&R with the timing cover still mounted. Those seals are very cheap to buy, and if you mess the 1st one up, well, you know..."
 
"I agree Diver Dave. The pict

"I agree Diver Dave. The picture is not definitive as to the source of the leak, and getting the timing cover back on and oil tight is no small matter. You have to loosen a few oil pan bolts up front, cut the ends of the gasket just so, compress the gasket, clean all surfaces and apply RTV in all the right places, and hope for the best. I'm sure there are tricks of the trade as far as getting a good seal, but it my experience it can be problematic."
 
I've found most of my belt

I've found most of my belt dust was due to pitting on the flanges of the pulley - kinda like your front crank pulley in the picture.
 
"Rust sucks. The more remote

"Rust sucks. The more remote possibility is the timing cover has rusted, causing a pinhole oil leak. You are showing some rust on the RW pump bracket, very typical for 19 years in salt.
FWIW; I replaced my port TC with a cast AL Edlebroc, but they won't fit on the gear driven cam motor (usually starboard side)."
 
"So it sounds like in order to

"So it sounds like in order to see whether or not the timing cover gasket, or the crankshaft/cover seal, or the timing cover itself is the cause of the leak, the balancer will need to be pulled anyway. It seems to be impossible to see what lurks behind it otherwise. The engine looked a lot worse when I first got the boat about 3 years ago, but we did some scraping, sanding and painting to pretty it up a bit. I do hope to be able to replace the seal with the cover in place, otherwise the circ pump would also have to be removed...drain antifreeze, etc. And replacing the timing cover gasket, as Tom and Dave suggests, could be problematic. My brother-in-law is half owner so I need to discuss all of this with him. I really appreciate all the help and suggestions.

Erich"
 
"Maybe you need to talk to you

"Maybe you need to talk to your 'partner' and convince him to buy the parts, and the beer, and to continually reposition the fan as you 'diagnose' the concern.....the key is to remind him he could be spending as much as $45/hour on someone half as knowledgable with much less motivation to do a proper job."
 
"$45/hour an hour! WHERE!? My

"$45/hour an hour! WHERE!? My "marina" charges $110/hr and is the cheapest in the immediate area!!!! Work on it yourself, as for your problem, I say you can do anything with enough beer!! GO FOR IT"
 
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