Logo
FULL SITE MENU

Another riser elbow thread

C

carech

Member
"I've read most of the elb

"I've read most of the elbow / riser threads on this forum, and it's been a wealth of knowledge. However, this has me questioning my regular marine mechanic's advice.

I have twin 1988 454 Crusaders on a 36 foot Sportfish with approx 900 hrs each. The motors were in freshwater for most of their life.. only in saltwater the past year.. To my knowledge, they are the original risers, elbows, and manifolds.

Just recently, I noticed one of the elbow/riser joints on the port motor dripping water after a run. It seems intermittent and seems to have stopped. I spoke with my regular mechanic who checked it out and verified the leak. He feels all the components on both motors look physically good given it's been in freshwater for the past 20 years.. some surface rust here and there. Also, some rust at the joints too.

Given this, he would like to re-gasket the elbows/risers on the port motor and reuse the original parts, if they are still in good shape. While at it, he wants to re-gasket the starboard motor, which hasn't been leaking. Based on his quote, I'm looking at $1500 - 2000 in a days labor, just to re-gasket. He mentions that he is going to re-plan everything to make sure the parts are straight so this will take extra time. This cost doesnt even include parts...

My question is..
- does this sound right?
- based on prior posts, everyone seems to be in general agreement that these parts have reached there useful life (22 yrs), so why not use the cost of labor and buy new parts, and try it myself? I can turn a wrench and hoping that the parts come apart easily given the long-term freshwater use..
- would you replace the manifolds too even though they look in really great shape?

Thanks guys.. appreciate any thoughts you have..I figure it's best to address these parts now before the SW welding effect takes place, if not already too late!"
 
"He is figuring a full days wo

"He is figuring a full days work x 2 mechanics at $95/hr... could be on lower end, but i've learned nothing seems to go easy when working on motors..i could probably get just the main mechanic at 8hrs at 95hr and help out. I'm on the West coast of FL."
 
One guy should be able to do b

One guy should be able to do both engines in one day. Having two guys in a tight space like an engine room is crazy.
 
"that is nuts,1 guy is all you

"that is nuts,1 guy is all you need and if its just a re-gasket,this is what i do for a living
a regasket should take no more than 4 hours
Parts for everything $25.00,give me $400.00
id be thrilled for a 4 hour day"
 
"One guy was supposed to disas

"One guy was supposed to disassemble and the other clean / re-surface the elbows and risers. Any opinions on the useful life of these parts? Based on prior posts, over 20 yrs is pushing it. Just dont want to spend money on labor and have to do it again in 2 yrs."
 
"If they are FWC'ed, shoul

"If they are FWC'ed, shouldn't have to change the manifolds, just the risers and elbows. Investing in a new hardware kit would probably been money well spent.

Agree with the prior posts that two mech's is wasted $$$. given the explanation, one will be twiddling thumbs while the other is working; I'd be wanting 100% effort out of both if i were paying.

If you have reasonable access, by all means consider the DIY approach. Assuming you don't need Al's BFH, the hardest part will be to drain the coolant without spilling any. On reassembly, some antiseize would be a good idea. final point, pay attention to the tabs on the gaskets and make sure the correct one goes in each location."
 
Appreciate the input. My floo

Appreciate the input. My floor pulls up in the salon exposing both engines with plenty of room all around. I was wondering about antiseize too. I'll probably give it a try and spend the $$ on new elbow/risers. Do you think just taking care of the port motor would be enough given the other motor doesnt appear to be leaking?
 
it may be ok for now but it pr

it may be ok for now but it probbably won't be too far the port one. You may want to buy all now if you can get a QTY discount; may save a bit on shipping - won't know if you don't ask.

OSCO and BARR are reasonable replacements for the OEM parts; GLM stuff has been known to have quality control issues.
 
"Good point on the QTY discoun

"Good point on the QTY discound.. will look into that. Any reason to spend extra $$ on OEM? Also, assume the OSCO and BARR replacements dont come in the crusader blue.. Can you repaint to match the rest of the engine?"
 
"I think I used Barr for my la

"I think I used Barr for my last set and they were blue. Either way, get a can of Crusader engine paint and paint it once it's assembled.

If you are handy with wrenches and have the access, swapping the risers and elbows is a relatively straight forward task. Hardest part about the job is probably getting the stuff apart. Do it yourself with new risers and elbows (manifolds should be fine if it's a fresh water cooled engine with a heat exchanger) and save the cash for something else. Make sure you have all the gaskets (and know their order of installation for your application), correct length studs for the risers, new copper washers and nuts for the risers, and bolts (usually come with the elbow) for the job at hand."
 
"one tip, don't bother sep

"one tip, don't bother separating the elbows/risers since they're both going to be trashed anyway. That way that only old H/W you're dealing with is riser to manifold.

Don't underestimate the exhaust hose connections at the elbows. There was no way I could get mine off w/o destroying them. If the hoses are original, I would plan on replacing them.

Mine were due anyway but I didn't know this was a potential issue and had downtime waiting for new hose.

If by chance you have either 4" or 3 1/8" exhaust hose, shoot me an email I have both brand new. Now you know the other issue I had


Bob"
 
"i have 2 small block crusader

"i have 2 small block crusaders and did the same job last year.one side came apart easy. the other side the riser and manifold studs were rusted together and i had to take the exhaust manifold,riser and elbow off as one unit and actually beat the riser off in pieces with a hammer then change the studs which 2 broke off in the manifold and i had to drill and easy out them out.not wanting to sway your thinking but be prepared.and i agree,be careful to put the gaskets in right.dont assume the way they are in now is correct.one of these guys on here has the diagram for assembly.just plan on a day,take a deep breath and turn on some nice music.beats paying 2k."
 
i have it printed in my notes

i have it printed in my notes as I plan on pulling my elbows (risers look great for some reason..?) and putting in new gaskets and checking them out.
 
"<!-attachment-!><center><[img

"<!-attachment-!><center>
attachment_icon.gif
gaskets""></center><!-/attachment-!>

the file is too big - will post a link a thread with the "Gasket Chart""
 
"A lot of great feedback -- mu

"A lot of great feedback -- much appreciated. So in summary, here is what I've gathered with a few more questions...

- my 88 454 are FWC and the dates on my elbows / risers are 1987, so I will definitely purchase replacements... not just re-gasket as my mechanic suggested

- OSCO / BARR seem to get good reviews from this board, but haven't heard much about going with OEM parts... they seem 10-20% more expensive. Do you pay more just for the brand name or is the quality actually better, which could lead to an extra yr or two before replacement?

- Gaskets / Hardware: Sounds like getting the appropriate new kits are $$ well spent. Using anti-seize and re-torqueing bolts after a warm-up/cool down is a must. Gaskets should have 1 hole to allow riser to fill completely and be in 12 oclock position.

- To use gasket sealant/permatex or not? Seems like the answer is no, if you are using the OEM graphite gaskets. Yes and sparingly on both sides, if you are using gaskets from OSCO / BARR. However, the manufacturer recommends not to, but some folks seem to notice less rust at the joints using the silicone.

- Other notes.. completely drain the manifolds/risers and stuff a rag in the port. Take into consideration the hose connection to the elbows and buy new, if needed. On my hose, it say's 3 inch Butyl... should that really be 3 1/8 inch hose?

Tools... loosen everything up with Kroils and hope for the best. Have a BFH, just in case. Is there a certain spec for tightening the bolts and do you guys use a torque wrench or just go by feel?

I'm going to give it a try and just need to make sure I order all the correct parts. Thanks!"
 
looks like you'll have to

looks like you'll have to type the rest of the hyperlink to get it to work.

The 3.125" hose will be MUCH easier to work with than the 3.0".

I'll defer to Diver Dave but am pretty sure Permatex#3 is the sealer of choice for the gaskets. I think Al has an experiment going on in this area too.

I don't think there is any extra value in the OEM parts beyond their paint being Blue.

Some of us prefer torque wrenches; others have deemed them useless. If memory is correct 20 Ft # will be adequate.
 
"I have made a strong case for

"I have made a strong case for myself to NOT install riser/elbow gaskets dry. Thru two cycles of installing dry and now two cycles of using RTV ultra black or ultra copper, the difference is clear. Use a thin coat of RTV on all surfaces of the soft/composition gaskets. Use your fingers to wipe it on, as thin as possible. Basically, color the gasket, no more.
Put the exhaust manifold to head gasket on dry.
I have no experience with graphite gaskets. Are they brittle? Must be for high heat apps.
I do use the aviation type stuff (Permatex 3), but for other apps., like for thread sealing when I'm out of PST
happy.gif


"I don't think there is any extra value in the OEM parts beyond their paint being Blue."

That has been my experience as well. My only catastrophic riser failure was with a Crusader OEM, but it was at the 5 year mark. I use Osco these days."
 
"I had a related question. I w

"I had a related question. I was planning on pulling my risers/elbows and manifolds off this weekend. I didn't buy the new parts yet, I thought I would do that next week after I figure out what I need to replace. Still fairly cold here in NY. Any problems leaving all the parts off for a week or two? Any suggestions as to how to best cover all the open ports, etc..?

Thanks!"
 
"There is no reason to pull th

"There is no reason to pull the manifolds on a FWC unless you think something is wrong. Replace anything that salt water comes in contact with if you are tearing it apart. For the holes, light oiled rags (WD-40) would work fine."
 
"DD: The manifold gaskets we g

"DD: The manifold gaskets we got were graphite coated. Have no idea what their internal composition is. They were not as flexible as a normal intake gasket but not as rigid as a head gasket. I was told they would be good for about 5 R&R cycles if needed.

Scott:

Leaving the parts off shouldn't be a problem for that short a period. Easiest thing is to stuff rags in the exposed ports. Keep the cast iron removed out of the weather and it should be fine, too. The hoses should be ok, as is, but be sure NOT to position them over anything electrical (to eliminate the drip when the liquid expands)."
 
Rich - they are FWC. Is there

Rich - they are FWC. Is there a fail safe way to insure the manifolds do not require replacement? I'm unsure of the age. They are Osco's so I know at some point the previous owner replaced them.
 
"Scott; i'd check the fas

"Scott; i'd check the fastener torque and touch up rust spots. If you insist on taking them off, check the head mating surface with a machinist rule (straight edge). FWC exh. manifolds should be a > 20 year solution."
 
"Thanks, I'm sure not remo

"Thanks, I'm sure not removing the manifolds will save me over $900, time and most likely a ton of frustration. I'd estimate the existing manifolds at ~10 years old."
 
"When putting everything back

"When putting everything back together, it sounds like some folks on the forum use Permatex #3 or anti-seize on the bolts. Does anyone have a preference?

Also, any preference of using a light layer of Permatex ultra black RTV or Permatex #3 on the gaskets?"
 
"Just went through this with 1

"Just went through this with 1 of 2 FWC Crusader 454's. I operate in salt water and replace risers and elbows every 4 years. For the more difficult jobs, (you can bet 1 or more studs will be frozen), I use a first rate mechanic who charges me $55/hour. this job took 3 hours. You should be able to find parts online for $700-$900 per engine. I replace everthing aft of the exhaust manifold: risers, elbows, gaskets, block-off plates, studs, Crusader brass nylock nuts and copper washers."
 
"Agree with Jeff... wish I cou

"Agree with Jeff... wish I could find an efficient first rate mechanic for $55hr. I ordered all my parts from ebasicpower.com and should receive them today. Complete HW kits, elbows, and risers for both engines for $1100. Less than the $1500 labor quote for re-gasketing only from my mechanic."
 
Back
Top