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A question for all the outdrive experts

B

bill_griffiths

Member
Hi guys
haven't posted on here for some time as everything has been going fine.
I have a 225d engine and 285 drive (electro-mechanical tilt with power steering). Ever since I have owned the boat (over two years now) reverse gear has been difficult to engage. The engine tickover is correct and forward has always engaged easily. On recommendation I checked the cockpit control which is perfectly free with no cable attached and then proceeded to fit a new shift cable making sure that routing, clamping etc was correct. This appeared to ease the problem but not fully rectify it.
Last season we were on a trip up the coast when the drive 'jumped' out of gear and the engine revs went sky high. I immediately throttled back and discovered that all was fine until the engine revs went above 3500 when it would do exactly the same again. Since then engaging reverse has been a progressively harder task up until the point that at the end of last season I could not engage reverse at all - the control will just not move bacwards.
My question is this - in your opinion could the cone clutch be seizing, sticking on it's shaft to the point that it is not fully engaging forward - hence the slippage - and totally refusing to move to engage reverse?
My boat is in the water all year round and it is frighteningly expensive here to have her lifted to dry dock plus the daily charge for hard standing. I would like to be reasonably confident of what the problem is before I have her lifted as once out I need to fix it as soon as possible and get it back to it's mooring.
I know that there are some true experts out there on these drives and would appreciate any help you can give me.
Many thanks in anticipation

Bill
 
Hi Bill. I would first make sure that the shift cable is properly secured to the outdrive intermediate housing by means of the locking tab 32. If the screw 33 is either loose or missing, or if the cable is not secured by some reason, you may get the symptoms you are describing. You can check that from the water with goggles and snorkel, the water in Alicante (Alacant for the locals) is fairly warm the whole year round.

ACF6E.gif
 
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I agree with Eduardo.... take these measures that he suggests, and see if any improvement. He certainly know as much about these as I do.
This could very likely be your problem! And what an easy fix!


I'll also add that there is a device that has been proven to be unnecessary, and that is the coupling rod (SEQ#3) that depresses the lock brace (SEQ#45) during a shift into REV.
I have spoken with several V/P techs over the years, and many of us concure that the lock brace being depress (while a REV engagement is made), really creates no safety, as perhaps assumed by the engineers.

I've done a Moc-up and am able to show that this is not necessary.
By removing this coupling rod, any sticki-ness within the reverse latch unit and lock brace will not be felt during a shift into reverse.
There is no issue that I can see by removing this.
(It can also be re-installed if need be!)

Next on my list would be removing the cable from the bell crank assembly (SEQ #2) and find center of both your shift unit travel..... (i.e., cable travel)..... and of the bell crank travel (ultimately, the travel of the vertical linkage piece seq #17).
Do this by moving the shift lever to full FWD (this extends the cable at the drive).
Move the bell crank to full FWD (this would actually be in the aft direction only)
See if the cable can over-travel some. (this is important)

Do same for a REV shif..... (cable retracts for a REV shift) and see if the cable can over-travel some. (again, very important)

When center is found at neutral....., adjust the barrel fitting to accommodate the hole, and secure it to the bell crank arm again.
Be sure that the cotter pin is backed by a small SS washer.

Now with the cable connected to the bell crank, do same with the linkage arm & clevis (SEQ#17 & 18).
See if the eccentric cylinder (not shown) can be equally moved in either direction..... and with hopefullly, some over-travel of the vertical linkage arm.
(same principle as what you did with the cable previously... all we're doing is making sure that the cable is capable of some "over-travel")

Adjust the clevis so that that the pin goes freely into the brass eccentric cylinder hole on the transmission only when both the shifter and transmission are fully in the neutral position.
(sorry for the bold, but this is important :D)

Give it one more check to see that a full shift in either direction can be made.

When all of this has been done, you will have eliminated the posibility that the shifter/cable are not traveling far enough in either direction for a proper shift into FWD/REV. Neutral is a given! :rolleyes: LOL

The book will not tell you much about this.... particularly the method that I just described.
Use it..... you cannot go wrong!

If this does not help, then you may have an internal issue with the sliding sleeve or shift shoe..... or even a sleeve to cup issue.

For that, you'll want to have a pro take care of it, IMO.

.
 
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Many thanks for the prompt replies, I will go to the marina tomorrow to check the locking tab. If that is ok I will go ahead and arrange dry-docking to do the adjustments recommended. I anticipated lifting anyway to sort this problem so have already bought new anodes, antifouling paint for the hull and for the drive and a new drive bellows.
Thanks again Ricardo and El Pescador, it may be a few weeks before she is back in the water for testing, I will keep you posted on the outcome.

Bill
 
Just to clarify the situation that I have, the control lever at the helm will not budge at all towards reverse. If I use both hands on it I can get a very small movement. This is why I asked if the cone could be sticking. I would have thought that if the locking tab were at fault or the adjustment then the control would still move but not engage gear. You guys are the experts and I'm only questioning what I know from an engineering backgound. Thanks again
Bill
 
Bill, if all is working as it should, all the shift shoe does, is raise/lower a brass sliding sleeve that is free to move until it reaches the upper or lower driven gear cup.
They normally do not stick in this mid-range of travel.
That is not to imply that this cannot happen, but IMO, it would be rare... and it may pertain to the internal spiral splines of sleeve/shaft if it did! Or a broken shift shoe!

If that is all good, and if the sleeve were to stick, it will be while engaged into a gear cup.
So in other words... difficulty would be when coming FROM gear, back into neutral (i. e., the sleeve releasing itself free from the friction of the gear cup)

You suggest that you are having trouble going into reverse, correct?
That is why I suggested the coupling rod removal.... and a few other things.

Have you completely eliminated your throttle/shift unit?
 
Ricardo
many thanks for the explanation - makes more sense now. With the shift cable disconnected from the throttle/shift unit it slides easily fully forward and fully backward, nothing catching anywhere just a nice smooth shift.
Just got back from the boat, the shift cable locking tab is fine - and - Eduardo, the water was bloody freezing.
The lift out is the next step, but living in Spain I have to book it and then wait for 'manana' . Last time I booked a lift out it was two weeks later!! The weather is gorgeous over here, perfect boating weather with no boat! Oh well, I suppose I could have a quick blast in the dinghy!
Cheers all, I'll keep you posted on progress. Let me just say that I greatly appreciate the fact that you guys share your knowledge - free of charge - on this forum.
Bill
 
Ricardo,
you would be more than welcome here! I have six bedrooms so no problem putting you up. Oh, by the way, you won't need to bring any tools, I've got everything you need to fix my outdrive!!!

Bill
 
One other thing to mention here... I had some "issues" with my drive when it was first launched after a re-engine. I was able to fix the problem from the dock when the tide was up by laying on the dock with the drive tilted up. If you have a dingy, then you should be able to tie it across the transom and use it as a work platform. Not as easy access to everything as being in the water with mask, etc, however, you should get to enough of what you need to play with and stay dry (absenting any "mishaps")

I would suggest removing the prop(for safety) and the back cover on the drive and with the drive down and the shift cable detached, see if you still have the problem when you manually move things at the drive. If you are working alone, make sure you are wearing a pfd. The auto inflatable ones work well.

While I've done a bit of work on my drives with a dive mask and snorkel, that was many years ago when the water was "apparently warmer".
 
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Well my friends, I told you things moved slow in Spain. I booked my lift out on Monday 3rd May and she was lifted this afternoon!!!
I've already discovered why reverse would not engage, the lock brace, #45 was in the up position and very stiff. The rod #3 was hitting it and coming to a complete stop. Disconnected the linkage #17 and the shift shoe moves freely into forward and reverse.
I haven't found a solution for my sudden rev increase after 3500 rpm but have bought all the seals to pull the shift cover and inspect the sliding sleeve for polishing. I'm pulling the top of the drive anyway to replace the drive bellows while she's out. The prop is sound, I've already had one slip on the shaft so know what to look for there.
I'll keep you posted now that I'm actually working on it.

Bill
 
ricardo,dont the ears on the lock collar hold the pawls from slipping off the lock pin?I was told when in reverse you can on longer manually pull back the lock mechanism.
 
Ricardo,are you shure that when put in reverse,and the push rod pushes the collar forward,and the ears on the collar meet the spring latch pawl,nothing is held in place?I have new pawls and springs,but in reverse,I can still manually pull back the lock assembly.Iwas told that in reverse that should not happan!Since my push rod and lock collar are 25 years old,Ithought the tip on the push rod ,and the length of the ears on the collar wore down.I am about to replace both.Please advise.Sorry,I did nto mention 280 Volvo drive.Although I knew this,I still put the boat in the water.I thoughwith everything clean,4 new springs,2 new pawls,and a new lock pin,I could get thru my 25 hr season.The first 5 hours were good.Last weekend,hit the fuel dock,and almost an Egg Harbor., and now its OK.That is why I looking for some extra insurance with this locking collar. .
 
Bill, you do not want to polish the sliding sleeve!
If anything, you will want to "lap" the sleeve into the respective gear cups while on the bench and disassembled.
There is a procedure for this, and best to follow it............, but it won't be in any manual that I am aware of.
Contact me or Eduardo if you have a question or two!

The lock brace and coupling rod is an entirely different topic, and many misunderstand this!
However, sounds like your entire latch unit should be disassembled and cleaned.
When sticky, it makes for a stiff shift into REV.

This involves the entire drive to be removed from the transom shield..... upper/lower both removed as well.
And that's how I would approach it:
Transmission removed first......
Lower unit removed next.....
Then remove the Intermediate section.
Reverse this order when re-installing!

The Pivot Tube must be carefully removed as to not damage it!
It is quite involved if you have not done this before!
However, don't allow the exploded view to intimidate you!

Bob, this is a common misnomer regarding the purpose of the lock brace and coupling rod.
Read this thread, and particularly post # 6.
http://www.baylinerownersclub.org/forum/showthread.php?t=49458

Keep in mind that on the AQ series drives, FWD gear engagement ALWAYS involves a shift cable to EXTEND at the drive.... NOT retract!
Retract is REVERSE (and is what allows the coupling rod to push on the lock brace)
Extend is always FWD gear engagement!
 
Rick,thanks so much for the pictures of the lock assembly.I know you don't have much faith in the collars ability to hold any thing in place under the torgue load and movement,and Iagree with You.However ifthe ears on the lock collar have any degree of angle wear on them now the pawls will easily slip forward. I have to replace it for peace of mind.I'll keep you posted.If you ever come to Long Island NY,We can take my 28ft contessa to Fire Island for lunch.

Bob, this is a common misnomer regarding the purpose of the lock brace and coupling rod.
Read this thread, and particularly post # 6.
http://www.baylinerownersclub.org/forum/showthread.php?t=49458

Keep in mind that on the AQ series drives, FWD gear engagement ALWAYS involves a shift cable to EXTEND at the drive.... NOT retract!
Retract is REVERSE (and is what allows the coupling rod to push on the lock brace)
Extend is always FWD gear engagement![/QUOTE]
 
Bob, I sold a coupling rod to one of the ME.com members. He received it and installed it recently. Swears that it fixed his problem.
With the coupling rod pushing the lock brace pushed FWD, it does add the additional force of the little tiny spiral wound spring.... but nothing more!
My guess would be that his single main return spring, or his latch hooks, were his real problem.

Next time I play with my moc-up, I'll use my spring scale and measure the force between lock-brace activated -vs- lock-brace not activated.

.
 
Rick
you misunderstood me, I meant that I would be inspecting for polishing / glazing giving an indication of slippage. I pulled the shift mechanism and the sliding sleeve looks perfect to me, it is a dull colour with no obvious signs of slippage. The oil was good, now drained off, no water, no debris. Removed the transmission ( upper unit ) today and the drive bellows. Both UJ's are fine and have grease nipples, so will grease liberally before rebuilding. Raw water elbow has rotted through AGAIN. I replaced this only 15 months ago! New one is on order. Will be rebuilding the drive tomorrow WITHOUT the reverse lockout rod #3 which has now been removed.
Still haven't got an explanation for why my revs suddenly go skywards at 3500 and I lose all drive until I throttle back when she regains drive.

Bill
 
Rick,I hate to keep bothering you on this Volvo nightmare.I just joined the Bayliner forum and read some of your knowledge.You said the collar lock tabs only offer a little more support to the round spring in holding the jaws against the pin.Yet,someone said that in reverse,you can no longer reach down by hand and pull the pawl down and away from the lock pin.That leads me to believe that the lock collar ears cover s the rear top of each pawl,preventing then from slipping down and away from the lock pin.I also realize this wont remedy worn pawls or broken springs.Two more questions.What do you mean by "over center". I just bought a new spring from volvo,the main one,the vertical one,and it sticks to amagnet.Is volvo making non stainless steel springs!I have lost many mid season that corroded away.THANKS,BAYLINERBOB from LI NY.25 years ago I bought this boat with this drive,and never had a season without a reverse popup at a bad time,but I will not give up.Iwould love to know have many Lawsuits volvo had with this ,to say the least,fragile design.As we all know,reverse pop-up means no brakes..
 
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