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89 Johnson 15 Won't Start

G

gogittum

Member
I have a J15ECP that was running fine until I "improved" it. It was looking pretty ratty under the cowling, with a lot of missing paint, so I pulled the coils and wire bundle loops, etc. and masked off a lot of it, then rattle canned it. First with self-etching aluminum primer, then with semi-gloss Dover White. Looks nice now.

Went to start it afterward and nothing. Pulled the plugs, grounded them and spun the motor with a 1/2" drill and got a very weak, erratic spark.

There is a red wire with thick insulation that comes off the upper front terminal of the junction block that sits over the rectifier. I think. This is a pull start tiller motor with no electrical system. Not sure it even has a rectifier, but that's the position it would be in.

A yellow wire with blue trace comes out from under the flywheel and connects to the same terminal as that red wire. The red wire goes down into the pan, around the back of the motor and comes up in the middle of the cylinder heads, where it's been cut by a previous owner and connected to "something" with a wire nut.

When I pulled the coils and dropped all the wiring below the motor housing, I'm sure I felt something pull loose and there's nothing connected to that red wire now. The wire is shiny - not corroded or oxidized.

I've been thru every inch of that motor and can't find anything that isn't connected - and connected properly. I even pulled the coils back off and traced wires all the way up to the kill button and lanyard switch. Fished around under the powerhead and above the pan thinking something might be hiding under there. Nope. All is good.

I am absolutely baffled. It ran fine before my paint job. No spark now. I'd sure appreciate suggestions.....esp. about that red wire. Thx in advance.
 
Review year and or the model # on this motor.------Clean off paint where the coils mount.-----Are you sure coils are back in same place as before paint work.----Sounds like it has a battery charging system.------Sounds like the electric starter was removed.-----Any pictures ?
 
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As Racer mentions, a red wire is hard to find on a manual start 15 hp. Is it an orange wire? Perhaps your ultra sweet paint job has given the grounds a little resistance, thereby weak spark.
 
I had my answer all set and lost connection when I tried to send. Aaargh....start over.

I pulled the coils back off'n it and polished the mounting bosses with a wire wheel, then cleaned the bolts and 3 ground terminals with wire wheel and put it all back together. No change.

I did make a mistake in my original post. The red mystery wire does go to the upper forward terminal on the block, but under it is another red wire....and they are definitely red. All 4 wires on that terminal block go to the round doo-hickey (rectifier ??) just below it, except for my mystery wire.

It does appear to have had a starter at one time, tho' the wiring is gone. I took detailed pictures, but when I tried to add pics in my 25 hp tilt thread, they'd only load as thumbnails. Don't know what I'm doing wrong - not familiar with this format. No point in adding them here - can't see any detail.
 
If it has a rectifier, then the red wire from the rectifier goes to positive on a 12 volt battery.-----And you need a negative from battery to the block.----I can not see your motor therefor it is just a bit of guessing here.----.-----It may have been an electric start with a battery charging coil.-----It may have just had a battery charging kit installed.----All easy to figure out in just seconds ifI looked at your motor !!-----And are you 100% sure that the motor is an 89 model ? ----Or perhaps look at the model # again.
 
Thanks for the reply. This motor has been on the back burner for quite a while, while I've been taking care of other projects. Just now coming back to it, getting it ready to sell and I want it to be right. It's a strong little motor - it pushed my 16 ft Starcraft to 22 mph on the GPS. Compression is 120 on both. Uurrghh....what'd I mess up when I painted it ??

I just went out and checked model # again - J15ECTR and s.n. 5774022. When looking for parts for it last year, Boats.net identified it as an '89 model for me. I'm taking their word for it.

If that red was for battery connection, I'll just leave it capped.

I mentioned that I have clear, detailed pictures of it, but I can't get them to load full size. When I added 2 pictures to my 25 hp tilt problem thread, they added as thumbnails. I haven't worked with this forum before but on others I have no problem. Any thoughts ??
 
Sorry----Now that you have finally revised your model # is is easy.-----The CT makes it an 83 model !!----Look it up in the 1983 model list on this site and others !-----Just post the pictures the same way as your other motor.
 
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Nope. Just a black stripe.

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Ummm.....maybe that almost unnoticed white stripe is a faded red ??
 
racerone said:
Sorry----Now that you have finally revised your model # is is easy.-----The CT makes it an 83 model !!----Look it up in the 1983 model list on this site and others !-----Just post the pictures the same way as your other motor.
Click to expand...

Okay, we'll give 'er a go. Are those other pictures showing up full size for you ??

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This is my mystery wire.

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Question - The ground wire from each coil is clean and grounded solidly but I notice metal color in the inner mounting surface of the coils as well. They aren't quite as pretty. Do they need to ground to the block as well ??

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Right side with junction block pulled off, showing red wires. The blue wire protectors are courtesy of a previous owner.
 
The flywheel is clearly for the electric start model.------The intake cover shows the mounting lugs for the starter motor.-----The model # indicates it left factory as electric start in 1983.-----The decals are clearly for an 83 model too !!
 
Great job, Racer, your amazing.....The straps on coils MUST be properly grounded, My friend. Nice paint job, beauty motor. Uncommon to have an electric start, sure would be nice to find a starter.
 
New starter ( sierra ) is $131.00 others a bit more.-----Make sure the start button and neutral start switch are there for easyness.----If those are missing a solenoid and simple switch is the answer.
 
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I had major spinal surgery just 5 weeks ago and hafta take it easy for many months, so a starter would be a good thing. Yanking on a starter rope, not so good. I'll look for a used one first, before spending the bucks for a new one. I'm retired and live on SS......and they are not generous, even after paying into it for 50 years, so any way I can economize is very desirable.

P.S. Belay that - I keep forgetting I have 2 boats and this one is for sale. Starting won't be an issue. Dohhh.... The 25 hp starts fine and won't bother my back. My main issue with it is the carb, aside from the tilt problem on another thread. Searching for a carb now.

One thing on the 15 hp starting problem.... When I pulled the coils off to paint the powerhead, they were stuck on. It appears to have gotten very hot in the past - that's what burned the paint off - and the coils partly melted down and molded to the mounting bosses.

I had to pry them off and then to get them back on had to trim some material off the undersides. The metal showing on those mounts is pretty grungy. The actual ground wires coming out of the coils are clean and mounted to clean spots. If the mounting pads are part of the grounding....?? I'll polish them up and triple check the grounding.....when it stops raining.
 
If coils got that hot they might need replacing.------And post compression test values before you spend any beer tokens on this motor.
 
Right. Good recovery from the surgery. Sure would be nice to push a button to start that 15, eh? If it got that hot, it might have some piston scoring and cylinder damage. It takes a good amount of heat to bond these coils so that they have to be "pryed" off....ouch! That means you coulda fried an egg on that baby. Where do you live? Salt water?
 
Gonna ramble a bit here. Several months ago, I dumped the 16 ft Starcraft Seafarer with the 15 hp motor it came with in the local canal at Trail's End, leading to the Withlacoochee River. It's 1.4 miles to the river on the canal and the motor ran fine and, as I said earlier, pushed that light boat to 22 mph. Noisy little brute, tho'. Very buzzy.

Just as I reached the river, it slowed down, then died.....and I smelled smoke. That thing was blistering hot. It had been pee-ing good, so tilted it up and sure enuf, a piece of plastic grocery bag had wrapped around the lower unit. I started rowing back and gave it time to cool some, then after about 20 minutes or so, tried starting it and it fired right up and brought me home.

I ran it a couple more times after that on runs up the river of ~5 miles or so each way and it seemed fine. Long story a bit shorter, I bought a well used 25 Johnson to get a little better performance. The 15 worked very hard but was a bit marginal.

Rented a compression tester from the local O'Reilly's to check the 25 before buying and it tested 130 psi on both cylinders. He drove it in from somewhere else and it seemed to be running fine and started right up for me, so bought it. (whole 'nuther series of stories there, but maybe another time)

While I had the tester, I tested this 15 hp and it showed 120 on both cylinders - about what I expected from how the starter rope felt....based on a lot of years of experience. That was after the overheating experience, so felt the warm fuzzys over that.

0N0208.JPG

This is how it looked when I bought it and how it still looked after the overheating episode and just before I painted it. It got new plugs along with the paint job.

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I do wish these opened larger. These shots are resized to 1000 pixels wide - nice page size, with no scrolling.

This is how it looks after I painted it.....and I say again, it ran great till I painted it. Red arrow points to the red wire I was concerned about.

It was mizzerble all day today - 55º and very light, drizzly rain, so nothing got done outside. Lots going on tomorrow, so prob'ly no more on it till Tuesday.

I'm still curious - where the coils contact the block, should there be shiny electrical ground areas there, too, in addition to the ground wires that come out of the coils ??

Yes, starter would be nice, considering my back, but prob'ly not, since it'll be sold soon. I hope.
 
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That's right, the pictures zoom in good enough to see fair detail. You have done a good job with the paint, it was pretty ugly. I have a 9.9 here with a mouse nest, I took in on trade....it looks like yours before it's paint job. I see your coils seem to have the ground wire, rather than the grounding strap. So that might not be the problem. These power packs are often the culprit. I have had them die while trolling actress the lake, no warning....just "go home, no more fishing! Also had them die while stored in the shed over winter. So, if you removed it for your paint job, and it dropped on the floor, or something....that could be your problem. Did you mess around with anything under the flywheel? If you suspect the pack, you can get a known good used one from Tim's Outboard in Hackensack MN @ 318 682 2331. They can ship same day if you call first thing in the morning. Theresa or Callie will likely answer the phone, then check with Mike or Dan, on the part for you. Have your model # ready. Family business for going on 60 years....the very best folks you can meet. Might even have a used starter with solenoid, switch, and wiring....if you want to complete your electric start.
 
timguy said:
That's right, the pictures zoom in good enough to see fair detail. You have done a good job with the paint, it was pretty ugly. I have a 9.9 here with a mouse nest, I took in on trade....it looks like yours before it's paint job. I see your coils seem to have the ground wire, rather than the grounding strap. So that might not be the problem. These power packs are often the culprit. I have had them die while trolling actress the lake, no warning....just "go home, no more fishing! Also had them die while stored in the shed over winter. So, if you removed it for your paint job, and it dropped on the floor, or something....that could be your problem. Did you mess around with anything under the flywheel? If you suspect the pack, you can get a known good used one from Tim's Outboard in Hackensack MN @ 318 682 2331. They can ship same day if you call first thing in the morning. Theresa or Callie will likely answer the phone, then check with Mike or Dan, on the part for you. Have your model # ready. Family business for going on 60 years....the very best folks you can meet. Might even have a used starter with solenoid, switch, and wiring....if you want to complete your electric start.
Click to expand...

Yes, mine have the ground wire. If'n I remember right, I think those coils can be checked with an ohmmeter. I'll try it tomorrow and use the ones in the 25 for comparison. Thanks for the thoughts.

P.S.: No, I haven't touched the flywheel or anything under it.
 
Update. Weather's better so got after it. I checked the 2 spark coils with an ohmmeter and found both to be the same: from the orange input wire to ground shows 0.2 ohms and from input wire to spark out terminal shows 242 ohms. .2 is just right, 242 should be 240, but should be OK.

Both plugs are new, but I tested the spark plug wires and one is open, so have a pair ordered. The kill button and lanyard switch are both functioning properly.

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Everything looks good so far, but the module at the red arrow here is unknown to me. The 2 orange leads to the coils come from it. How can I test it ??

You're gonna love this: yesterday, I gave a squirt of ether - diesel starting fluid - to the intake and cranked it with a 1/2" drill motor. Generally, a motor will start instantly like this. This one balked at me. Felt like it was firing well before TDC and trying to kick back against the drill. Jolt, jolt, jolt, etc.... As said before, it has excellent compression.

Switching spark plug leads did nothing. It just farted out the exhaust a time or 2.
 
Ha....that's cheating! The black unit is the power pack, which is a fair suspect to me. I have a good size bag full of bad ones here. Time alone can kill them, whether stored or not. There is no given way to test them other than to try another or to put it on a different motor. If the stator and trigger both test out using the diagnostics in your manual, which you probably don't have, then you point finger at the "pack". Accurate testing for the stator involves a DVA meter or adapter which measures peak voltage in an instant. Over the years I have noticed the pack can fail just by moving it around or dropping it on the bench. It's certainly your call but I would suggest either testing the stator and trigger with a multimeter and aforementioned adapter, or try a known good pack.
 
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In post #1 he said it ran good up until he partially dismantled for painting. I asked him about flywheel and he said that he never removed it, see post 22. However, the symptoms indicate bad timing, yes!
 
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I think I'll do both. I'll be stopping at O'Reilly's tomorrow anyway, so will rent (free rent) the flywheel puller again (I used it on the 25) and check that out. Meantime, I'll also check to see if the 25 hp has the same type of module so I can try it on the 15. Tim is exactly right in #27. Thanks, y'all.
 
Update, 2/16. Frustration. The flywheel puller at O'Reilly's was already out, so I stopped at a scrap yard and foraged for metal to build my own, so's I'd have it.

0N0287.JPG

Cost me $3 for the metal and 1/2 hour of work and it came out pretty good. Even painted the thing, since it's going to be hanging on the wall in plain sight. Came time to use it, tho', and I hesitated. The motor cranks fine with the 1/2" drill motor and only starts the jolting when I squirt ether into it.....so maybe it's trying to diesel on me ??

Meantime, I ran into a couple of other things. 1st was the plug wires - one showed open, so that's no good. I bought 2 new ones.

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While I was fussing with the plug wires, this connector from module to spark coils fell apart. The 3 metal pins were completely loose and just floating in there. "Aha," I thought, "gotcha." I cut the bad plug out and hard wired the 3 with heat shrink crimp terminals, then pulled the plugs, grounded them and spun the motor.

Just about had heart failure - still no spark. None. Thought for sure I had it, but....??

I did look at the module in the 1993 Johnson 25 hp and it looks to be the same. It's well shielded, but color code appears to be different. After Tim's earlier comment about how delicate these things are, I hesitate to fool with it - cutting the wires loose and all.

I'm sure now that timing isn't the problem and, I think, the only option that's left is that module - power pack, I think you called it ?? I think they run $80 - $90 and can't spend that lightly, but will if necessary. What do y'all think. Bite the bullet ??

Meantime, the carb on the 25 is still giving fits....whole 'nuther can of worms. Can't seem to get a boat operational no matter what I do.
 
I've been busy with other things - the 25 Johnson has a new/old carb with a kit in it and runs fine on the muff, but trailer is still (! ! !) out at welding shop - going into 4th week now - for an extended hitch so can't water test the boat.

Meantime, I ordered a new power pack module for the 15 - $90 - and it made no difference. Just put it on the motor yesterday and all is as before.

Spinning it with the electric drill didn't even produce a pop, so squirted some ether at it again and got the same jolting feeling, as tho' it's firing well before TDC and kicking back. Maybe that drill motor isn't spinning it fast enuf ??

I did make the flywheel puller and can use it, but I have absolutely no experience with the stuff under there and have no idea of what to look for......what could change the timing, except for flywheel key.

I say again - all I did to a nicely running motor was pull the electrical off the motor - without disconnecting anything - to paint it, then put it all back on....and that's when all this started. It baffles me on what could have changed.

I hope Tim and Racerone are still out there and reading this.....HELP.
 
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