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5.0 MPI starter bolt frozen

S

stillcrazy36

Contributing Member
The inside starter bolt is frozen. The starter shows evidence of being sprayed with salt and must be replaced. Looks like the water supply hose to the stb. exhaust manifold leaked due to a faulty clamp.
Both starter bolts were frozen but I had access to the outside one and was able to heat and apply PB blaster. It lossened up in 1/2 hour but I don't have access to the inner bolt casting to do the same thing. There no room for an impact tool. Tried tapping the end of the bolt with a hammer. Spraying the general area (Hail Mary), used as much of a cheater bar as I could get in the space available.In the Marina we used small butterfy impacts to drive screws. I don't think that it has enough torque but the vibration might help. ?? PS this is not my first GM starter to remove but so far the worst !
Any ideas?
 
If you can, fire the engine up and bring it up to operating temperature before trying to remove this bolt.
Heat expansion is going to be your best advantage, IMO.

When installing the new starter motor, use the Automotive version Never-Zeez on the bolt threads.

Also, with today's array of starter motor manufacturers, be absolutely certain that the bolt length is correct for the nose of the starter motor.
A bolt that is just a hair long, may bottom out before it actually clamps the nose completely tight onto the engine block.

.
 
My first suggestion is if you don't already have a set, spend a couple of bucks and get a decent quality 6-point 1/2" drive socket. Higher quality sockets will grab the sides of the fasteners and won't round the corners off. I prefer Snap-on; MAC, Craftsman, Kobalt, are all OK. When you find yourself applying a lot of torque, a 6-point socket is essential.
Use the breaker bar with it.
Also, if you can get another arm down there while your applying torque, a few good whacks with a ball-peen hammer on the starter housing might help knock her loose.
 
Thanks guys for trying to help.
#1-I can't "Start" the engine to run and warm up the block because the starter is faulty and I have already applied heat to the area.
#2- I am using a Quality 6 point, 1/2" socket.
#3- I will have to try the beeswax on something accessable.
Yesterday I removed the stb. exhaust manifold to get a better view and access. I was able to get one lube hole drilled. PB'd it and will try again today.
 
No such luck on the second bolt. I feel it twisting and don't want to break it off ! ! soaked it again but weather came in on me, so called it off for the day. Tomorrow looks iffy, so I am still open to ideas.
PS...I have both torches mentioned.
and there is only about 8" between the bolt head and the bottom of the boat, so whacking is tough but tapping doable.
 
Just asking, but if you broke the head off of the bolt, could you then remove the starter? And if you could, would it then be possible to heat the area around the threads (to expand the bolt hole), and get a pair of vice grips on the remainder of the bolt? I ask only because if you're already spinning the bolt head, its gonna go. Just wondering. Good luck
 
PM starter 5.0MPI sm.jpgThanks matt,
Another try yesterday of heating and lube, but no dice. The bolt is 3/8" x 41/2" with 3/4" of threads in the engine block. The rest of the bolt is in the aluminum starter. The bolts are perpendicular to the starter,( see image) So if the head is broken off then the starter still will not pull out. I am not yet "spinning" the bolt head (trying not to) What I rrefered to was the feeling that the bolt was twisting because of it's length. Today, bigger heat but I don't want to fracture the cast iron "Nub" that the threads are in.
 
Thanks matt,
Another try yesterday of heating and lube, but no dice. The bolt is 3/8" x 41/2" with 3/4" of threads in the engine block. The rest of the bolt is in the aluminum starter. The bolts are perpendicular to the starter, So if the head is broken off then the starter still will not pull out.PM starter 5.0MPI sm.jpg
 
First, sorry about the double post but when editing, I lost the post and could'nt find it so I didn't know if it got posted or not.
Ha,Ha...ya the inevitable is not that easy on a lift. I have changed out a 460 and 350 on the lift but it's not like working in the marina.
I was thinking about the disassembly of the starter but can't remember the Bendix area. Seems to me that there was a circlip that had to be removed on the inside to release the shaft. I'll have to see an exploded diagram...."EXPLODED ?" that's an idea.
BTW BIG heat did'nt help. the block just sucked it away !
 
OOOPs and then the Bendix falls out ! I guess I could fish it out. Thought about distroying the aluminum part of the starter. The starter lists for $369 + A repair shop may have just the part. I also have an old style, BIG starter from a 350 Mag with staggered bolts. It may just take a different pinion and IF the dimensions of the align,hole etc. are OK...??anyone know if the old style is interchangeable ?
 
DBelectrical maybe 100 bucks new with blots.

Bad idea to snap the bolt it will snap inside the block for sure.

Try tightening it first. Can you get a Air impact wrench. Pneumatic hammer, chisel in there ?

 
How'd you do that ?... I just got a "compact" impact. I have only 8" to work in and a 425# won't fit. The Compact is only 6" plus the socket but the torque is only 230#. Maybe the vibs will help. That's my next move when Irene lets me.
I considered the bolt breaking. Then I'll drill it out and helicoil. With the starter gone there will be room but I'll have to work bottoms up, which is not good.
 
stillcrazy36 said:
How'd you do that ?... I just got a "compact" impact. I have only 8" to work in and a 425# won't fit. The Compact is only 6" plus the socket but the torque is only 230#.
Click to expand...

He did not do this. Just imaginative thinking..........
Besides he has an old 4 banger so working on it is a piece of cake.........

No easy answer to this one.. do your best.

In a shop enviroment the motor would have been pulled the job done, the motor reinstalled and the boat owner back on the water VS the days spent trying and asking questions. Just the way it is.....

Good luck.
 
Your in Fl too bad cause if you wait a bit till x-mas i might be able to stop by and help.

OK your in a position thats gonna sound bad to you but will allow you too do alot of other things after the motor is out.

You got to pull the drive and the motor.

If you go to drill the center of the bolt you will find you will need a bunch of drill bits.

On four bangers it is a little easier.

Sorry but thats where you are.
 
just an idea, put a breaker bar on socket(NOT RATCHET) heat bolt ally breaker bar and ilike to use a jack, apply preasure to handle equivelant to touque to tighten and walk away. come back every so often and apply more. Sooner or later one of two things are going to happen, bolt breraks loose or breaks off. If its the latter then, well you were going to pull anyway. Best of luck!
 
wildfrahm said:
just an idea, put a breaker bar on socket(NOT RATCHET) heat bolt ally breaker bar and ilike to use a jack, apply preasure to handle equivelant to touque to tighten and walk away. come back every so often and apply more. Sooner or later one of two things are going to happen, bolt breraks loose or breaks off. If its the latter then, well you were going to pull anyway. Best of luck!
Click to expand...

What many who are reading this thread DO NOT UNDERSTAND is,

There is NO room to do anything like many have suggested. Some bildge configurations are not designed for mechanical work.

This would be comaparable to some automobiles that the engine has to be dropped/pulled to change spark plugs because you can not physically reach them any other way.

I have had issues changing oil filters on some boats just trying to avoid dissassembly of the entire seating section/components.
Once due to my shoulders bieng thick I had to go get a skinny long armed co-worker just to remove and install a oil filter........

Some situations require major efforts to complete a simple or what should be a simple job..........
 
its sad but true like Kghost and others said, you spray with PB blaster, you try and loosen, that does not work you try and tighten then loosen, if that does not work you pull engine. just another part of boating.
 
Hey guys, this part has been fun. Especially hearing from newbees. I really didn't expect to get some earth shaking revelation that I didn't know about but I was looking for some creative thinking. I have built over 150 boats, sized from 20 to 50ft and was on 3 race teams but I am retired now and it's not a matter of taking it to a Marina, it's "One bolt" and me !
Thanks for all the comments.
 
stillcrazy36 said:
Hey guys, this part has been fun. Especially hearing from newbees. I really didn't expect to get some earth shaking revelation that I didn't know about but I was looking for some creative thinking. I have built over 150 boats, sized from 20 to 50ft and was on 3 race teams but I am retired now and it's not a matter of taking it to a Marina, it's "One bolt" and me !
Thanks for all the comments.
Click to expand...

Were these sail boats or power boats???

A lot of info will be derived from your answer.......

Also there is no creative thinking on a issue such as this. The answer is very straight forward, Lift engine to gain access to bolt. Done deal!
 
I built power boats. 95 Sutphen offshore performance boats 20 40 ft., 28 twin diesel Shamrock 31's, a 50' Thunder triple Yanmar,several 30/36' Thunder boats, 1 (u66) Unlimited Hydroplane,the #1 & #4 Nortech 50 cats. several Nortech 32,36, 40 V's. Reconditioned and refit a 40 Excaliber, recondition,repower a 27' Formula with 454's, Remove OMC from a Donzi and converted to Merc.,restored a 60's Barracuda inboard and updated, update power and completly rewire a 30' Scarab adding Radar & mapping.I modernized a 233 Formula & Repowered,rewired a sunken 31 cabin cruiser.
Actually there were some ideas generated.The disappointment was from the guys that do this every day for a living. Understandably time is money and that is the only solution.
 
The "Bolt" is out ! The starter is out and all are still intact. Switched back to WD40 the night before. Tried the impact tool several times without noticeable movement. WD again and let it sit. Came back later with more mechanical advantage and it came loose.5.0 Chap starter OUT_0216.jpg
 
Trick that I used was to drill two 1/8" holes that would hit the bolt. I then used them to spray WD40/Blaster into bolt threads. I will then JB Weld the holes and seal them up.5.0 starter lube holes_0213.jpgI did the same on the other bolt.
 
guyjg,
Your ahead of me. I just got it out. it's not going back in yet but Neverseize might be used.Good tip but I hate that stuff ,gets all over and can't get rid of it...but it does work ! maybe I use to much ! Ha,Ha
Checked "DB starter and Alternator" out They specialize in Chinese products. Yes they have NEW replacements as low as $59. Most are $88. Most reviews say they last 8-10 starts before failing . Not the same risk as buying a $19 cordless drill.
 
Thanks, I know I made an a$$ out of myself but I had the luxury of time and it was a challenge. Notice my pen name ? and 36 ain't my age ! Ha,Ha
I am not falling for the cheap Chinese deal for something that important on the water. BTW the "over ride clutch/gear" was frozen so repairs may be less. Notice I didn't say Bendix. That is an old timer's term for the ineria twist arrangement that used to send the "over ride clutch" into the FW.
 
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