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440 Chrysler center riser aluminum manifold option

510mopar

510mopar

Contributing Member
I have been putting 440 Chryslers in all my boats since the mid 70's. I have built a lot of custom parts and have 440's and 426 Hemi's behind Mercruiser Bravo's. A fellow who sells me my aluminum center riser manifolds has asked me to make the adapters I use available. I am just not sure there is a market to be worth my while. These are CNC machines plates that bolt to the heads of a 440 and allow the use of the larger port small block Chev manifolds. I have used these for years and they really keep the heads cooler than the original Chrysler logs, not to mention weight savings.
I also have a cool front drive that bolts to the front of the crank and allows the newer Sherwood P105 sea water pumps to bolt up. These are crank driven pumps that Crusader and others use that are readily available.
If anyone thinks this may be something they could use email me. I am willing to produce them if there is a market.
I am going to try to attach a picture of the twin 440 magnums in my Searay Sedan bridge with the center riser manifolds, stainless steel risers and crank driven pumps.
my email is [email protected]
Thanks for your time
Dan
 

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510mopar said:
1... I have built a lot of custom parts and have 440's and 426 Hemi's behind Mercruiser Bravo's.


2... I also have a cool front drive that bolts to the front of the crank and allows the newer Sherwood P105 sea water pumps to bolt up. These are crank driven pumps that Crusader and others use that are readily available.

Dan
Click to expand...
1.... I'll presume that you mean "In front of" Mercruiser Bravo's. ;)

2... Dan, Kudos to you!!!!
images
I much prefer the crankshaft pumps if/when they can be used.

I've mentioned this here in this thread.
The Sherwood P-105's are basically interchangeable with the Johson F6B-9's. The F5B-9 is a slightly smaller volume pump.

Dan, what machining is required to fit the crankshaft pump onto the Chrysler front balancer?


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Rick
I am traveling so slow to respond. There is no machining, bolts on. Some times there is very little space between the end of the crank and the surface of the balancer once the original bolt and washer holding the balancer is removed, need about .200". If this is the case, but rare, the balancer is removed, push a rag into the area around the seal and use a small grinder to trim a little more off the end of the crank. then put the balancer on, slide the drive hub on, put the longer bolt in and torque it to spec. The P105 bolt to the hub, that's it. The end of the crank is usually back far enough. Some of the newer cast crank engines are close. The .200 is used to center the hub. Since these are made on a CNC the are perfectly true. Email me direct at [email protected] and I will email you some pic's when I get home.
Dan
 
Dan, I would like to see a few photos. That would be great.
Perhaps this will help the Chrysler guys understand that this is very doable.
I think that once we'd retro-fit a crankshaft pump, we'll appreciate no belt, no bearing side load, and the ease of accessing the impeller.

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Here are some pics and explanations. The original parts that are used on these older Chrysler 440's are getting obsolete, hard to get, and were heavy. The engines are known for there longevity, huge torque and fuel efficiency over the other big Blocks. My Searay with twins uses just about 1/2 the fuel of my buddy's same Searay with twin 454 Chev engines as an example. After building these for over 30 years nothing on my engines, short of the blocks and heads, looks original. These engines are much lighter, run cooler, easy to get parts for and are very reliable. Engine modifications are not for everyone. However most of us who own a 30 year old engine are open for changes.

All the engines I build are total closed cooling. The manifolds are cooled with Glycol and only the stainless steel risers and the heat exchanger see raw water. I would NEVER put sea water, fresh or salt in an engine that is cast iron. after 1 season the block will have too much insulating scale, as well as small passages will be blocked causing hot spots in the castings. The strongest marine 440's used a head that has 2 extra passages per spark plug, on on each side to provide extra cooling to the plugs to prevent detonation. Every raw water cooled engine I have dismantled had these passages plugged.heavy duty head plug cooling.jpgStandard head.jpg I know that some guy's do not want to modify their engines and would be happy to post threads about it. I really do not want to get into that. If a person is happy with the way their engine is set up, great. It's all about enjoying the water anyway. i have posted a pic of a standard head and one with the extra cooling, these are 1/4 inch diameter holes, you can imagine what raw water will do to these. The extra cooling keeps the plugs much cooler, better for the volatile Ethanol fuel. The dual pocket raw water pump system work, but also cause huge amounts of block corrosion.

Here are some pic's of the pump drive I have been asked about in many emails. One shows the space from the edge of the crank to the face of the balancer. A depth of about.200 is need.Balancer front showing space.jpg If less a small amount can be taken off the end of the crank or the end of the drive adapter. In the rare case it needs extra I take it off the crank as this is what centers the pump drive. Some engines use a spacer behind the pulley and some do not. The adapter is machined to go inside the spacer so it works on either one. It works on 318 thru 440 engines as the dimensions are the same.
Just remove the bolt holding the balancer on, check for the right depth to the end of the crank, if good put the adapter on, put the longer bolt in and tighten to spec, thats it. The pump centers over the hub in the middle of the adapter then bolts on using the 3 bolts.
When I get a chance I will take pictures of the heads and manifold adapters. This set up removes about 200 lbs from the engine. If the Mercruiser stainless pipe style risers are used it adds better breathing and more weight savings over the cast stainless risers. I have used both.

Hope this answers some questions, or maybe just created more questions.
DanPump drive mounted.jpgBalancer showing pump mounted.jpgBalancer spacer and pulley.jpg
 
Here are a couple of other pictures I could not get to load last post.Front pump mounting parts copy.jpg
 

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..."The strongest marine 440's used a head that has 2 extra passages per spark plug, on on each side to provide extra cooling to the plugs to prevent detonation."

Is that the "RV motor" that used peanut plugs?

Jeff
 
Dan, OK.... I see now what you had to fabricate in order to drive the crankshaft pump.

I see the two alternators..... so that answers my question as to why so many belt shivs.
Could you eliminate the forward-most un-needed shiv?
If so, would that allow the crankshaft pump to install without the drive adapter?

Another question.... for those running only one alternator, minus the extra belt shivs......, is the drive adapter necessary for the crankshaft pump?

Just curious.


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Picture was taken when setting up the engine. 2 alternators are 200 amps each, total of 400 amps per engine with twin engines gives me 800 amps at 14 volts. My boat has full size fridge, apt size deep freezer, central heat and a/c, 1200 watt microwave, 4 gal, 120 volt water heater, large TV plus tons of lights and electronics. 8000 watt inverter peaking at 16,000 watt In hot weather I can cruise with the a/c running or idle and engine and have at least 300 amps to use. I have lived aboard cruising for over 4 months and never used shore power. there are 11 huge deep cycle house batteries. Each alternator uses both belts so all 4 are used just for the alternators.
The design of the Chrysler balancer does not allow direct mounting as the front of the pump was designed specifically around the Chev pulley. The bad thing about mounting on a stamped steel pulley is that if the pulley is at all out of round, typically of stamped steel, the pump will wobble. This drive I made is bolted to a perfectly machined surface so the pump runs true. Once I did the first one I would never go back to belt drive. If the motors runnin' the waters a pumpin'.

I also have built a bell housing for the Chrysler inboard that uses the 143 tooth stronger ring gear INSTEAD OF THE OLD 60'S STYLE 172 TOOTH this housing uses the new small high speed starter found on the new Dodge Ram pickups on the 5.2 thru 5.9 engines. This is a great upgrade over the ancient direct drive starters.

I hope to be back home this weekend to take pictures of the manifold mounting plates and the bell housing.
Dan
 
Jeff
I have found these engines in RV's, White combines, marine engines and an irrigation pump marked industrial engine.
the 1973 version of the motor usually had a windage tray and the bigger 6 pack rods. 2 years ago I pulled a set of engines from a boat in Florida and owner told me were original, both had these heads. Yes the use the tapered seat BL9Y plugs (R43TS)
I will try to post a picture of a head that I have machined the hardened seats into on both the intake and exhaust valves. This makes a very strong marine head especially with ethanol.
 
Dan............
510mopar said:
Picture was taken when setting up the engine. 2 alternators are 200 amps each, total of 400 amps per engine with twin engines gives me 800 amps at 14 volts. My boat has full size fridge, apt size deep freezer, central heat and a/c, 1200 watt microwave, 4 gal, 120 volt water heater, large TV plus tons of lights and electronics. 8000 watt inverter peaking at 16,000 watt In hot weather I can cruise with the a/c running or idle and engine and have at least 300 amps to use. I have lived aboard cruising for over 4 months and never used shore power. there are 11 huge deep cycle house batteries. Each alternator uses both belts so all 4 are used just for the alternators.
My God... Holy Cow...... 400 charge amps per engine?? You've got some heavy DC loads on board! Sheesh! LOL

What size charge leads feed from your alternators?????
BTW, unless we are using high dollar Balmar or _____ alternators, they typically cut back on the charge rater rather quickly.
IOW, start out at high amp, but cut back soon.
What charge numbers are you seeing, and how long will they hold these numbers?
Just curious!

Generator on board?


The design of the Chrysler balancer does not allow direct mounting as the front of the pump was designed specifically around the Chev pulley. The bad thing about mounting on a stamped steel pulley is that if the pulley is at all out of round, typically of stamped steel, the pump will wobble. This drive I made is bolted to a perfectly machined surface so the pump runs true. Once I did the first one I would never go back to belt drive. If the motors runnin' the waters a pumpin'.
Yep! Good for you! I like the idea!

With the GM pulley, there are two raised portions that act as dowels that align the pump base as to center it. Typically, we don't come up against any wobble concerns, unless there is an issue with the pulley.
That's why I was asking what you did to accommodate this.
Sounds like your adapter is the cure for this!

I also have built a bell housing for the Chrysler inboard that uses the 143 tooth stronger ring gear INSTEAD OF THE OLD 60'S STYLE 172 TOOTH this housing uses the new small high speed starter found on the new Dodge Ram pickups on the 5.2 thru 5.9 engines. This is a great upgrade over the ancient direct drive starters.
Yep again! No Bendix or non-reduction motors for me! :mad:

The HTGR starter motors will kick A$$ over the OEM anyway.
You'd be hard pressed to find a late model OEM Marine starter motor today that was NOT HTGR......, and thank goodness!

Click to expand...
 
Here are a few pics of the pump drive on an engine to show what it actually sits like. I made it to work with any front pulley configuration Chrysler used on small and big block engines. The P105 just bolts to it with 3 stainless bolts and your done. I have used a stainless bracket from the 5/16 anti rotation hole on the pump to the block as well as to a separate rubber mount bolted to the stringer to stop the pump from rotating with just rubber hoses to it. I now use CPVC to plumb the seawater with and just short pieces of 1 ¼” hose to join to the pump. This is so rigid I do not use the anti rotation bracket.​
 

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Jeff
You cannot get them anywhere,I manufacture them. When I do I make a few spares. I have never figured out what to make and sell them for that is why I am trying to find out if it is actually worth while. I am working on that now and should know in a few weeks. What engine are you using it on and do you have the spacers between the ballancer and the pulley? Just curious. The pump is a Sherwood P105, I use this pump to cool my 510 ci, 500HP stroker engines and it has huge water flow.
Dan
[email protected]
 
Jeff, for the 360, you may want the smaller volume Johnson F5B-9 pump.
Sherwood P-105 and the F6B-9 are the same large volume pumps.
The F5B-9 and F6B-9 are of the same configuration as the Sherwood P-105.
F5B-9 is less volume.
Both F5B-9 and F6B-9 are less cost.
They all mount in the same way.

However, if Dan's adapter raised area OD fits the ID of the Sherwood base flange, and is used for centering, this would need to be factored in.
Not sure if the Johnson flange ID is the same as there is no need for this in a conventional installation.
IOW, in a conventional install, the dowel holes provide the alignment..... the three bolts simply secure it.


Sorry Dan.... I didn't mean to take center stage here. :D
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I built the adapter around the P105 as it is available for under $200 wholesale. I have not seen the F5B-9 or similar for a while. The stainless P105 is a great pump and any water not used by the cooling system is moved overboard and cools the exhaust. You can never have too much through the exhaust especially with fiberglass mufflers. If the flange dimensions are the same then sure, it will work great. I did use the machined interior dimension for the pump to center on. Once mounted I use a magnetic dial indicator to check run out and is usually under.010. If more I would investigate why and correct.
I am working on costing a manufactured bunch. I just do not want to go to China for a cheap price so am looking for machine shops here that will work with me.
Dan
 
[FONT="]Here are some pictures of an adapter mounted to a bare 440 head. I had to use a bare one as the finished black ones would not show the adapter.[/FONT][/LEFT]
[/LEFT]
[LEFT][LEFT][FONT="]The width brings the mounting surface for the manifold out the right amount so the Mercruiser style 5.7 manifolds clears the rocker cover enough to remove it but not so much it sticks out to far.[/FONT]​
[FONT="]They are hard black anodized. These are the answer for getting rid of those massive old logs that Chrysler used back in the day. The old logs tend to overheat the end cylinders exhaust valves.[/FONT][/LEFT]
[/LEFT]
[LEFT][LEFT][FONT="]I just finished these so I had a set to take pictures of.[/FONT]​
[FONT="]This should answer the questions I have gotten.[/FONT]​
[FONT=&quot]Dan[/FONT]​
side view adapter mounted 440 head.jpg440 head exhaust port view.jpgadapter on 440 head.jpgDodge and Chev patter view.jpgTwin 440 mags 425 HP small size.jpg
 
Dan,
Your manifold adapter system is fantastic! I have a 1974 Correct Craft Southwind 20 with a M440B. I have been informed that this boat is one of twelve Southwind's built in 1974 with this engine. It was a special order and not common in Southwind's. So far, I have only been able to find mine...it may be a lone survivor!

Any way, I have found another M440B that I can experiment on so as to not "blemish" my original factory engine. My questions are:

1. Will your manifold adapter system fit in the same space as my old Chrysler log?
2. Do you have any experience with the manifolds from Glen-L?90-961.jpg

3. I know you don't like raw water cooling, but my boat spends most of its time on a trailer, not in the water. Will your Sherwood crank pump adapter work for me?

4. Last, I want to make 500hp from my "experimental" M440. Can I do this by using a stroker kit and boring the cylinders? Where can I find a performance camshaft for a R/H rotation M440? I have found a company to custom build one for me, but the cost is enormous!

Thanks again, and keep 'em floatin'!
 
I installed the Glen L manifolds 10 years ago on my 440. Also added aluminum intake. The combo reduces weight substantially. This is in my 1969 Century Arabian, turing a 14 x 16 prop to 4500 rpm at 5000 ft altitude. GPS- 50+ mph :)
 

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TonyJ1961 said:
Dan,
Your manifold adapter system is fantastic! I have a 1974 Correct Craft Southwind 20 with a M440B. I have been informed that this boat is one of twelve Southwind's built in 1974 with this engine. It was a special order and not common in Southwind's. So far, I have only been able to find mine...it may be a lone survivor!

Any way, I have found another M440B that I can experiment on so as to not "blemish" my original factory engine. My questions are:

1. Will your manifold adapter system fit in the same space as my old Chrysler log?
2. Do you have any experience with the manifolds from Glen-L?View attachment 5997

3. I know you don't like raw water cooling, but my boat spends most of its time on a trailer, not in the water. Will your Sherwood crank pump adapter work for me?

4. Last, I want to make 500hp from my "experimental" M440. Can I do this by using a stroker kit and boring the cylinders? Where can I find a performance camshaft for a R/H rotation M440? I have found a company to custom build one for me, but the cost is enormous!

Thanks again, and keep 'em floatin'!
Click to expand...

The manifolds I use are the same foot print as a small block Mercruiser but are aluminum from HGE. These are pressure cast not gravity poured. The adapters set them out just far enough from the head to be able to remove the rocker covers without removing the manifolds. So it makes about 5" out each side. The Glenwood, Nicson, Edelebrock logs all work great, but lack the rise needed for larger boats with the motors close to the waterline. I used Glenwoods on my old Gamma ski boat and they worked great.
I have built many 500 ci strokers and they are torque monsters in boats. Making 500 hp is almost a given without much effort. I would abandon the RH engine and put a standard rotation as the parts are readily available. In fact both engines and props in my 33 are standard rotation and I cannot tell the difference from when I had counter rotating. Everyone told me I was nuts but there are many twin I/O drives with the same rotation.
The Sherwood pump with work with any type of cooling as it is only a pump. Plumb it as raw water if you want, just remember each time the block drains, it rusts internally. Some 440 blocks, especially the older ones, do not like to be bored even .060 without ultra sounding them first to make sure there is enough metal. Most raw water cooled blocks given to me never pass the test after they have been in the acid bath to remove the rust. After putting $$$$$$$ into a engine why let it rust like that? Fresh cooling them is so easy. I use the 5" tanks from the 7.4 Mercruisers.

Have you ever talked with Kieth from Correct craft? If not he would be interested in your boat. I have seen them with 440's before, they were special order.
Make it big and light.
Dan
 
Dan,

I have talked to Keith at Correct Craft Fan (if that is who you mean) a few times. That is where I have researched my and with Woody from Correct Craft in Orlando. Woody actually remembered my boat when it was built in '74. Something about "ugly orange interior" and the engine combination.

According to my Chrysler Marine service manual, the boring limits are .040" anyway. I was thinking of going .030" to clean up the block. As far as switching to standard rotation, I know I need to rotate the front pump in my Velvet Drive and, of course, change to a left hand prop, but with fresh water cooling, don't I need some sort of heat exchanger to cool the fresh water/glycol mixture? How would I plumb that in? And wouldn't that eat up the weight savings from the Glenwood exhaust and aluminum intake manifold?

My engine sits well above the water line, so I don't believe that would be a problem, but since Chrysler used the loop type of riser, I may install one just to be on the safe side.

I am limited in clearance to a 13 inch prop. I am guessing if I take a bigger bite, say 14.5 or 15 that may absorb the power froma 500hp engine. Am I on the right track?

Tony
 
shuffster said:
I installed the Glen L manifolds 10 years ago on my 440. Also added aluminum intake. The combo reduces weight substantially. This is in my 1969 Century Arabian, turing a 14 x 16 prop to 4500 rpm at 5000 ft altitude. GPS- 50+ mph :)
Click to expand...
If this is Raw Water cooled, you will likely and eventually have issues with the aluminum intake manifold, since the coolant PH balance cannot be controlled.... even if in river or lake water.

This has to do with the cast iron components and the aluminum component both being in the same "electrical juice", so to speak.




TonyJ1961 said:
................ but with fresh water cooling, don't I need some sort of heat exchanger to cool the fresh water/glycol mixture? How would I plumb that in? And wouldn't that eat up the weight savings from the Glenwood exhaust and aluminum intake manifold?
Click to expand...
Tony, I assume that you are refering to a "Closed Cooling" system. Almost any Marine Engine can be fit with a CCS.
Yes, it would add some weight, but I believe that the protection would out-weight any negative aspects.

Depending on the size or capacity of the Heat Exchager, sea water pump volume, and the exhaust configuration, Exhaust can be either brought into the closed loop, or they can remain sea water cooled.



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Rick,

I operate strictly in fresh water. Presently, I have a double pocket Sherwood D55 (50?) pump. I have checked my Chrysler Service Manual and it shows the raw water going through the transmission oil cooler then the heat exchanger, then the exhaust elbows, and overboard. So I believe the system remains raw water cooled for the manifolds.

I get the pH problem with aluminum/cast iron attachement. Essentially you're making a battery (as my metallurgist friend would say). And the gaskets would not provide enough insulation to prevent the corrosion from starting.

Also, this boat has ran for 30 years on raw water cooling and done okay with no cooling issues that I am aware of. And it has been maitained by the same shop (Watercraft Sales, Three Lakes, WI) right up to the day I bought it.

I am not rying to pinch pennies here, I am just trying to get 500hp from a 440 stroker engine without breaking the bank or destroying an engine in the process.

I get the benefits of CCS, but for a boat that lives most of its life on a trailer, is it worth it?

I have a 20ft Correct Craft, Southwind 20 powered by a Chrysler M440B rated at 300hp.

thanks,

Tony
 
Tony, I often forget that in certain circles Exhaust Manifolds are called Heat Exchangers. I do not and have not worked with the older I/B's.

If you do not need the freeze protection in your area, then a CCS would not be as necessary.
If you have and use a Cabin Heater or O/B WH, and if in freezing winter temperatures, then the CCS is very nice to have.


.
 
Rick,

I live in St. Louis, Missouri. We do have cold winters and temps normally dip below freezing. However, we all winterize and lay up until spring anyway. I normally drain my block and manifolds and fill them with 50/50 antifreeze. I understand that up in Wisconsin, they simply drain the block and manifolds and leave them open without adding antifreeze. Not my first choise, but they have not had any issues...or so they say.

My boat spends most of its time on the trailer. I launch and retrieve as I use it. When vacationing, I don't like to leave it in the water. Maybe I am just afaraid of the worst happening, but when I was a kid we would hoist our boat at our local boat club instead of leaving it tied in a slip. We never had a problem with algae on the bottom or the lower unit of the outboard.

But I can see where CCS would may winter layup much easier. I would only need to fog my engine and make sure the coolant was at the right level.

Still, is the heat exchanger exposed to raw water through the hull or is it pumped through via the raw water pump, or how?

I have seen the old PT boats use exchangers that were exposed to sea water in the side of the hull (I think).

Tony
 
TonyJ1961 said:
Still, is the heat exchanger exposed to raw water through the hull or is it pumped through via the raw water pump, or how?
Click to expand...
Tony, yes, the H/E is a shell and tube bundle affair. Sea water is pumped via the same style sea water pump.
Sea water then passes through the tube bundle, and the E/G surrounds the tube bundle.
This is where the "Heat Exchange" occurs.

If in freezing temperatures, the sea water side must be drained during the lay up.


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