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New 1409 Can't get high RPM's under load

Yes 1973 Trojan with 318's. The carbs are 1409 4 barrels. Oh sorry I believe they were four barrel Carters. I will look for a pic of them.
 

Here is a video of the engine running with the old carb on it. Do you notice the hesitation when we give it gas?

PS that is my brother that we thought installed the choke wrong. He got off the hook after taking crap from me all week.
 
...Does the White spark plugs indicate a lean or gas starvation at all? "

It can be, but the 10 % ethanol fuels tend to run that way.

Jeff
 
kimcrwbr1 said:
Is the accelerator pump giving it a good shot of fuel when you goose it and did you install a new carb gasket when you mounted the carb. Use a piece of vacuum tubing and put one end to your ear and search around the intake gaskets with the other end with the engine running. Put the end in the carb so you know what to listen for. That will help you locate and isolate any vacuum leak that may exist.
Click to expand...

Just remember the the Edelbrock electric choke housing has a "metered" vacuum leak. It's actually fairly loud. Don't mistake this for a real vacuum leak.

-JJ
 
Jfreeman1412 said:
Thanks Jeff.

Noelct....I have not checked the timing. What or why does that come to mind? Thanks
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It is general standard procedure when starting engine performance related troubleshooting to rule out a timing distributor issue before attacking carborator and making adjustments. Timing is either right or wrong, whereas carborator has many more variables. It is quick and easy too.

If you are new to this, obtain a timing light and connect clip to spark plug wire #1 with power leads hooked up to 12 volt source. Hold trigger and aim light at timing marks on either front or rear of engine (you may want to clean and put white out-out on marks before you start engine to see them better). Timing (strobe light) should show at about 8 degrees before top dead center (check me on this figure). If that is correct, good. Then with light still on mark have someone bring rpm's up on engine. You should see timing mark move forward (advance).

If you find that timing is off, loosen bolt that clamps distributor in place and rotate distributor until timing is set properly. If timing does not advance, then you should have your distributor looked at by an "auto-electric professional".

I suggest you rule this out before proceeding to carborator. This whole process should take no more than 10 minutes. Good luck.
 
If that's an old Carter AFB carb, backfiring came with it at no extra charge! I pulled every trick I know on mine and was never able to totally eliminate backfiring at throttle up. A new Edelbrock 1409 was the ultimate solution.

Jeff
 
I defiantly took your advice with 1409's and have two new ones now. That was an old video to confirm the old ones were four barrels as well. I am convinced it is not a carb issue after swapping the carbs with similar results.

I think I will:
1. Check the Timing
2. Hook up a external gas tank to the fuel line right before the fuel pump.
3. Change the fuel pump
4. Re-access the situation
 
Jfreeman1412 said:
I defiantly took your advice with 1409's and have two new ones now. That was an old video to confirm the old ones were four barrels as well. I am convinced it is not a carb issue after swapping the carbs with similar results.

I think I will:
1. Check the Timing
2. Hook up a external gas tank to the fuel line right before the fuel pump.
3. Change the fuel pump
4. Re-access the situation
Click to expand...

Auto mechanics "just change parts". You're working on marine equipment. Understand how it works and change only when necessary. Yes, check timing and distributor. (Respond if you cannot get a timing light. I'll post back how you can check it statically.) Also, trace out ignition wires and make sure that they go to the correct plugs.

If it checks out get hold of a pressure gage to "test" your fuel pump pressure. Or even easier, get your manual and look up how many gallons per minute pump is rated for. Then get a hose and a bucket. With fuel line to carb/hose to bucket and coil wire removed, safely and carefully pump fuel by turning engine over while your buddy keeps track of time. If pump rate is less than expected, then hook up your auxiliary tank. That will tell you if problem is in front or behind the hook up point.

Don't be an auto mechanic "parts changer". Generally if it worked a couple weeks ago, it probably will today. Keep at it, you're getting closer as you rule out variables.
 
It depends how long you want to stay out of commission. The "shotgun" approach of changing multiple suspect parts at the same time, sometimes works if you want to get the problem solved quickly and get back out on the water.

But if you want to spend 4 weekends diagnosing the problem one part at a time, then by all means go ahead.

Considering the boat is a 73, changing the fuel pumps won't hurt. You can even keep the old ones as spares.

-JJ
 
noelct said:
Generally if it worked a couple weeks ago, it probably will today.
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I disagree. Your starter works fine until the day that it doesn't. Then you're stuck at the slip.

Many engine parts let go without warning. Just because it was running fine last weekend, doesn't mean you should rule out any possibility.

-JJ
 
JJDebeers said:
I disagree. Your starter works fine until the day that it doesn't. Then you're stuck at the slip.

Many engine parts let go without warning. Just because it was running fine last weekend, doesn't mean you should rule out any possibility.

-JJ
Click to expand...

Good post JJ!
 
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First of all, I just want to thank everyone for their help on this forum. I think you both have valid points. I like to know what's going on before I start throwing parts at this engine. And I as far as the fuel pump goes, It was just my next diagnosis after the timing checked out. I happen to have a hunch that this is still a fuel delivery issue and that is one of the last culprits. As I mentioned before, There was a lot of water in the gas (we had to drain the entire gas tank to be safe) and the people I had take it out of the water and winterize it had a hard time getting it started to winterize it. This leads me to believe that the fuel pumps sat all winter (in wisconsin) with water in them. We had to change the pump on the starbird side just to get it to run. And the one on the port side we had just changed last year, thus it probably held up just enough to work at lower rpm's.

So Again both your points were valid, just from different views. That is what makes a good forum, people looking at problems from many different angles and experience. I thank you both and everyone that has been willing to help with this issue and others. I have gained a ton of knowledge from this forum and can't thank everyone enough. I can't wait to put this issue to bed and let everyone know what it was, so that it may help someone else in the future! I will be heading back out to the boat tomorrow and will report back just as soon as I figure out anything.

Cheers.
 
Ok guys, I came out changed the fuel pump, the cap and rotor and tried to check the timing. There is no plate to check the timing on this engine. Does anyone have any experience with this, or is there a work around? Took it out and can get it up to 2100 RPMS and same thing. Extremely Frustrating. Thank you for all your help and patients. Where to go from here?
 
There's a rubber cover on the bell housing (one bolt--7/16 wrench) that you remove to time the motor. There's an arrow below it that points to TDC. One side of the arrow is the 5 ' BTDC initial timing for the port engine, with the other side of the arrow for the other engine.

Jeff
 
Jfreeman1412 said:
There is no plate to check the timing on this engine. Does anyone have any experience with this, or is there a work around? Took it out and can get it up to 2100 RPMS and same thing.
Click to expand...

Did you verify that each ignition wire leads to the correct cylinder, i.e.. check firing order? (You must have done this if you replaced cap.)

You should see a timing mark(s) (scribe line) on engine damper (the 6 inch diameter disc bolted to front on crank shaft) that lines up with a numbered gage which should be located about the 2-o'Clock position on front of engine...

And/or on the rear side of engine under the rubber flap located at the 12 o"Clock position that times off of flywheel.

When you had fuel lines off to install your new pump, did you back blow lines clear?

Don't forget to post findings.
 
Did you verify that each ignition wire leads to the correct cylinder, i.e.. check firing order? (You must have done this if you replaced cap.)

You should see a timing mark(s) (scribe line) on engine damper (the 6 inch diameter disc bolted to front on crank shaft) that lines up with a numbered gage which should be located about the 2-o'Clock position on front of engine...

And/or on the rear side of engine under the rubber flap located at the 12 o"Clock position that times off of flywheel.

When you had fuel lines off to install your new pump, did you back blow lines clear?
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info in the flywheel flap. Now how do I time it off of that? I also found the scribe mark on pully in the front of the engine. Can I get some instructions on how and what to do? Thanks again everyone.
 
Jfreeman1412 said:
Thanks for the info in the flywheel flap. Now how do I time it off of that? I also found the scribe mark on pully in the front of the engine. Can I get some instructions on how and what to do? Thanks again everyone.
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Do you have a timing light?

Yes. Hook power clips to battery source, other clip across #1 spark plug wire. Start and run engine at idle. Pull trigger on timing light and aim at timing gage. Should be around 8 degrees before top dead center, if way off set to 8 if close leave for now. If way off set distributor so that timing is at/close to 8 deg before tdc. (check manual for timing setting for your particular engine). Now with timing set/verified keep light on mark and rev engine, you should see timing advance when you hit about 2000 rpm. [hmmm, interesting rpm value as related to your situation] (check manual for exact setting). If you don't see timing advance you have a problem with the distributor throw-out weights not throwing out, thus your eureka moment.

No. Find number 1 spark plug wire on distributor and make a mark on metal body of distributor with pen where that plug wire is. Now, by hand turn engine backwards (This loads gears to take up backlash in system) until you line scribe timing mark with 8 degrees before top dead center. Take distributor cap off of distributor and see if rotor points at your pen mark. If not make it so it does (set timing). As for testing advance, you cannot do this without a light.

Keep at it.
 
Some engines have a timing tab on the front of the engine. This tab has markings from like 0 to 20the degrees BTDC and ATDC.

All engines have the flywheel and bell housing marks. Unless they've been worn off. Use an adjustable advance timing light set to your correct base timing value. With the timing light set to the appropriate value, the mark on the flywheel and bell housing should line up. If not, rotate distributor body counter clockwise to advance timing or clockwise to retard timing.

Before you do any of this, first decrease your idle to 500-600 rpm.

-JJ
 
I still believe your problem is with the single fuel pickup. Have you tried running one of the engines on a portable tank yet?
 
I still believe your problem is with the single fuel pickup. Have you tried running one of the engines on a portable tank yet?
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You may be right. I pulled the fuel line from the tank to the fuel pump and blew back. The next time out I was able to get the engine up to 2500 RPMS. Unfortunately I was unable to hook up a portable tank and try it out this time out. Had company out and had to keep the wrenching to a minimum. I will for surely be one of the first things I try when I get back out. It sucks that I will have to cut the copper gas line to retro fit the portable tank, but not the end of the world. If I remember what the previous owner told me about this boat at one time it had two tanks and the he had a new one (single) put in. Would the new 1409s pull more fuel than the old carters, thus causing this kind of issue? It seemed to run fine with the old carters but it never had the performance the 1409 gave the starbird engine.

On another note. I have the thermostat out of this motor due to the fact that it use to overheat and we couldn't figure it out. Come to find out the old owner( I think) had the raw water pump hooked up wrong. The Intake or feeder tube was on the wrong side of the bottom of the impeller pump. So when I replaced the second impeller and put the hoses back correctly I put a new marine 160 thermostat in to see if I could get it to run at operating temp and the exhaust got thick and white quick. I could really bellow out the exhaust with the thermostat in. I took it back out and right back to normal. What would cause this?
 
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The Exhaust Manifold and risers now are hot to the touch. Before (when the pump was hooked up backwards) the risers where always cold. Now they are hot but the intake manifold is cool (warm but not hot) to the touch, where that use to get hot. Should I be able to put my hand on the exhaust manifolds and hold it there? How hot should they be? They get hot now even with the thermostat out. Do you think it is the exhaust manifold that is causing the extra white smoke?
 
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