New 1409 Can't get high RPM's under load

[old hatt]

With regards to the fuel tank situation you just answered it when you said there was previously 2 tanks. As I mentioned earlier in this thread I have never seen 2 engines run off of 1 pickup. Good luck with it..

 

[Jfreeman1412]

I do believe these engines spin in different directions. Initially I looked at the other engine and hooked up the same as that one, it would still over heat. So then I hooked it up according the the marks on the bottom side of the pump. There is an in and an out. I hooked the raw water pickup to the in and the other bottom line that goes to the tranny cooler to the out on the bottom.

I do believe that the the hose right above the raw water in ( red arrow) goes into the engine. And the hose on the top side of the other port (Blue arrow) goes into the top of the exhaust manifolds.

Where should the water go first? Should it go into the engine or should it go into the top of the exhaust manifolds?

With regards to the fuel tank situation you just answered it when you said there was previously 2 tanks. As I mentioned earlier in this thread I have never seen 2 engines run off of 1 pickup. Good luck with it..

Would putting two new carbs on the engines make this happen? I didn't see this problem with the old carter carbs.

 

[RicardoMarine]

Now, if that does NOT do it, then I'd start looking at ignition problems (bad wires, plugs, weak coil, etc.)
Mr Carb gets blamed for lots of things it isn't doing!

Distributor advance locked up?

BINGO!
If you have exhausted all other suspect items, this is the place to look next.... actually, it should have been among the first places to look, IMO.

Throw your timing light on both engines.
Bring RPM up, plot out the igntion advance for both engines (idle, 1k, 1.5k, 2k, 2.5k, 3k and 3.5k rpm), and compare them.

NO progressive ignition advance.... No power!
Simple as that!


Caution... do not haphazardly replace and/or change flyweight springs.
Unless there has been an update, we have not been able to find any OEM Chrysler Marine ignition advance curve information on this forum.

.

 

[Trojanman]

The Exhaust Manifold and risers now are hot to the touch. Before (when the pump was hooked up backwards) the risers where always cold. Now they are hot but the intake manifold is cool (warm but not hot) to the touch, where that use to get hot. Should I be able to put my hand on the exhaust manifolds and hold it there? How hot should they be? They get hot now even with the thermostat out. Do you think it is the exhaust manifold that is causing the extra white smoke?

J your manifolds are always going to be hot to the touch,your risers should be warm. It's the same as a car,exhaust manifolds are bolted right to the side of the engine,right where exhaust exits but the risers are water cooled so they should only be warm to the touch.

With regards to the carbs....any size carb even one with a larger CFM should not cause a blockage in the line.

 

[Jfreeman1412]

Ok Guys, well after reading this I was looking through a service maneul that I found in the boat and stumbbled apon this "service Bulletin"

Apparently reguardless of what the pump says, the water intake comes into the rear pocket of the pump and through the exhaust manifolds, Thru the "oil cooler" or Tranny Cooler to the front pocket of the pump and then to the engine. This is the way I originally had it but had over heating issues. But having it this way the exhaust manifolds were always warm(cooler than they are now hooked up the way it is) and the elbows(risers) where always cool to the touch. Everytime it over heated hooked up this way you would always smell oil burning.

The Problem is that the Tranny cooler clogs very easily with rust and junk. The holes in there are about as thick as a pencil. This is a 1970 Bulletin....Anyone have any insight into this? Hope this bulletin helps some one in the future as well.

 

[Jfreeman1412]

And in this Diagram where does the water go when the thermostat is closed?

 

[Jfreeman1412]

it looks like the bypass keeps water flowing through the exhaust manifold and through the oil cooler and when the thermostat opens up it dumps the hot water out the elbow

But where does the water go when the thermostat is closed? It looks like it has no where to go since both outs on the thermostat are on top of the thermostat housing and i presume the water is coming from the engine below the thermostat.

As far as cleaning the heat exchanger, i usually take the hoses off and shop vac and rinse it out until it's clean.

 

[RicardoMarine]

Forgive my intrusion here, but it looks we've gone from a carburetor question to an ignition potential, to a now cooling issue.
If I'm off base or out of line, let me know. I'm just tossing this into the mix here.
And no... I'm not a Chrysler Marine expert at all...., but I do understand these Marine Cooling systems, both "open" and "closed" systems.


The engine's T-stat job is to hold back coolant (aka sea water in this case) until the engine heat dictates that the T-stat opens and allows coolant to leave the engine.
Think of this as if being on an "As Needed" or "On Demand" basis.
Open or Closed system..... it's pretty much the same task for the T-stat.

As I see it, it looks as though the supply for the oil cooler, and the FWD pocket of the sea water pump, are receiving water that has previously been through the engine and exhaust manifolds and has already removed some heat.
The only cold sea water, I've marked with blue lines.
So in essense, these are receiving tempered water that is now being asked to supply the engine.
Yes/No?

Where the schematic lists "By Pass", I'm not quite understanding.
It looks more like the T-stat is splitting, rather than allowing for a by-pass.
If it was actually allowing for a by-pass, it seems as though the main engine supply would directly feed the T-stat housing, and then onto the engine circulating pump.
The by-pass would then occur right at the T-stat housing.
IOW, why isn't this schematic showing the engine circulating pump's involvement?
Is this schematically correct?

Am I off base?

 

[RicardoMarine]

......... Can you take the end caps off of the heat exchanger and rod out the tubes it seems to me that would cause the engine to warm up real fast and not allow enough water to get to the engine to cool it down when the thermostat opens. Just be careful rodding out the heat exchanger the tubes are thin use a clothese hanger or soft wire with no sharp edges once you get the tubes open blast it with a pressure washer to scour the walls back to metal. Again I am just guessing here but the water coming out of the thermostat cover to the heat exchanger should be engine temp.

Apparently we are talking about two different systems.
The schematic that Jfreeman1412 posted, and the schematic that I marked up, is for a Raw Water Cooled engine.
I.E., no heat exchanger!

.

 

[Jfreeman1412]

Forgive my intrusion here, but it looks we've gone from a carburetor question to an ignition potential, to a now cooling issue.

Yes Sorry, I am stuck on the on the ignition and the fuel right now until I can make it back to the boat. Although I do still need to know where to time it at. The Front scribe on the front pulley or the flywheel in back? All of this is on the same engine though. I figure it could all be related in one way or another.

So in essense, these are receiving tempered water that is now being asked to supply the engine.
Yes/No?

I am under the impression that that is correct. I am trying to understand this but am not an expert and what I thought I knew about the cooling system of this engine is now thrown out the window. This is the way the fittings on the bottom of the pump say to connect it (In -Out)



Here is the Original setup in the Manual.



And here is the front of the service bulletin.



And the Back that we have already seen.




I don't know what to think. Anyone have this engine and cooling system that may have first hand or anyone else? Thanks

 

[Jfreeman1412]

Thanks for the Pic! I think that would work great! The only thing I am worried about is the gaskets on inbetwwen the exhaust manifold and the riser elbow there is a rubber gasket that blocks some of the water housing ports. I don't know if it is possible that these got put in with the new cooling set up, but I fear that water could some how work its way into the oil through the exhaust port? I don't know if this is possible.....but maybe some one can can let me know.

I can see how this system would work better the exhaust manifolds and oil cooler are constantly getting raw water and the engine gets coolant when it needs it

Would the water that hits the back of the exhaust manifold exit right away? Or would it run through the entire exhaust manifold. It seems that in the newer model has it running to the front of the exhaust manifolds as well. And they have that coming right off the rear pocket where the water is coming in going to the exhaust manifold first.

 

[RicardoMarine]

1.... Is there not a oil cooler that is a heat exchanger a*&&*)e.

2.... Does it not supply the engine with coolant (raw water) and if there is restriction in engine coolant would the engine over heat.

3.... My guess is yes and yes maybe you shoud edit before you post!

1.... Wow...... I guess that we can leave this > a*&&*)e < up to interpretation, but it certainly doesn't have a nice polite flavor to it.
If you question someone's response, why not question it politely, and in a grown-up adult-like manner?
ME.com has been one of the most polite Marine forums that I have participated in to date. I think that we should keep it that way!


2.... It's certainly within the path of the sea water!
As per your previous response, you did use the term "Heat Exchanger", and I see now that you are using the term "Oil Cooler".
Words have meanings........... Fair nuff?


3.... Again, ME.com has been one of the most polite Marine forums that I have participated in.
I'd like to see us try our best to keep it that way.

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Jfreeman1412, I'll apologize for the un-called for distraction.

As per your blue line, I don't quite see it that way. A portion of this water has just left the engine, and it has definitely entered and exited the exhaust manifold.
It looks as though your red line would be raw sea water that has not yet seen any warm or hot engine components.

 

[Jfreeman1412]

It looks as though your red line would be raw sea water that has not yet seen any warm or hot engine components.

Yes this is correct. This is the way I have it hooked up now. This is the way the pump indicates it wants it. there is a (in port) and an (out port). The engine stayed cool....but the exhaust manifolds and risers were hot(not overly hot) but hotter than usual. And this was with the thermostat out. As soon as we put the thermostat in, the engine would barrel white smoke. Without the thermostat the engine temp gauge ran at 100 the entire time, we ran it up the lake 8 miles at 2000 rpms and it didn't move.

 

[RicardoMarine]

Jfreeman, not that you inquired..... but if I owned this setup, I'd ditch that dual pocket belt driven sea water pump system, and I'd install a Johnson F6B-9 crankshaft pump. This is Johnson's single impeller large volume crankshaft pump.
You'd need to modify the pump drive base as to fit the Chrysler front crankshaft arrangement.

I'd then feed a more conventional RWC'd T-stat housing that truly "By-Passes", and I'd let the engine circulating pump "charge" the engine block with sea water.
The engine's T-Stat will do it's thing automatically by releasing sea water "as needed".

The balance of the sea water (that the actual engine does not require) then "by-passes" and continues right on to the exhaust system, similar to thousands and thousands of conventionally RWC'd I/O's and many I/B's.

The system becomes a "zero sum gain or loss" system.
IOW, all sea water that is drawn in, is supplied to either engine cooling demands, and/or exhaust demands.
The engine demands will have no influence on how much cooling water the exhaust system receives.

The sea water pump continues to pump..... and the T-Stat housing continues to "by-pass".
Again..... "zero sum gain or loss".

There will be a slight temperature change only to a portion of the water that is headed towards the exhaust system as the engine reaches operating temperature.
This occurs in any system.... RWC'd or in a Closed Cooling System!

The reason that I would do this is because of how many threads that I've read regarding issues with the dual pocket pumps, and with the more complex schematics of these systems. It just seems like it could be made so much more simple, yet equally as effective.
You end up with one sea water pump impeller that is easily serviceable, and easy to remove during winter lay up.

Again..... this would be "IF" I owned this setup!


.

 

[Jfreeman1412]

Thanks for the suggestion, it might come to that. For now it runs fine....except for the hot exhaust manifolds and the white smoke with the thermostat in.....even though it is apparently hooked up wrong..What are the dangers of running the exhaust manifolds hot?

 

[RicardoMarine]

Jfreeman, I'm looking at your T-stat housing and trying to make sense of it with the schematic that was posted earlier...., and also looking at the front of your engine trying to envision a single sea water pump adaptation.
I couldn't help buy notice the little automotive in-line fuel filter installed on the pressure side of your fuel system.
This could get you a citation, and it certainly is not a safe scenario, IMO.

 

[Jfreeman1412]

The engine compartment will heat up creating other performance issues not to mention fire hazard make it right or dont take it out in my opinion.

Thanks...I know it's just frustrating trying to figure this out. And it ran so good at the gauge hooked up the way it is.

I couldn't help buy notice the little automotive in-line fuel filter installed on the pressure side of your fuel system.
This could get you a citation, and it certainly is not a safe scenario, IMO.

Should it be a flare fitting?

 

[RicardoMarine]

Should it be a flare fitting?

Are you asking about the automotive in-line fuel filter?
We should not have a filter installed in the pressure line from the fuel pump to the carburetor.
The only fuel filters that we'll see in the pressure line, will be on some of the FI systems, and these are designed for this.

Your main fuel filter will be in the suction line, up-stream of the fuel pump, and just after your anti-siphon valve.
Your carburetor may have a small screen within the fuel inlet fitting. Pull this apart, and check.

In addition to the automotive in-line filters not being legal, their square area of filtering media is just too small for our usage.
Add to that, that these are often 20 to 30 micron, or even smaller.
If there is no primary filter, these can become restricted very quickly.
They actaully have no place in a marine application.

.

 

[Jfreeman1412]

I see. The only other filter is the filter in the fuel water separator.

 

[RicardoMarine]

I see. The only other filter is the filter in the fuel water separator.

If the fuel/water separator filter is good and up to date, your system should not require the little in-line filter.
Keep in mind that the standard marine filters are not actually a true water separating filter.
If you are suspecting fuel filtration issues, and/or moisture, try a RACOR system.


As for the fuel line to your carburetor........., see FEDERAL LAW 183.558 - Hoses and connections for specifications re; USCG approved A1 or A1-15 fuel hose being used between conventional 5-7 psi fuel pump and conventional carburetor.

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