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Need some good sound advice...

gl115 said:
hey sorry if gave bad advice about turning engine over with crank bolt, thats how I always have done it with plugs out to find TDC, must be lucky but next time will rethink that.
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with the plugs out the engine should rotate by hand with just a little effort. using the crank bolt or the alternator is no big deal.
if the engine is siezed for some reason this may be his problem. the valves not adjusted correctly and not opening with plugs removed the engine should rotate . must be something else wrong that its smoking the wires when cranking with the starter.
 
Ok..Done messing around! Pull the Starter no bind there. Pull the outdrive no bind there. Pull the plugss No compression. Now put a wrench on alt. dampner,whatever! Try to turn it over. Should tell u if it`s mechanical or electrictial
 
Well here is an update. I had the batteries tested and the Autozone man says they are good. I did tests that a Don S. has a sticky for posted on another board and all shows good. There is no bind at the outdrive. Still no plugs nor distributer in it. I forgot to spin it by hand but will do so this week. I will look at the starter to see if I can get it out or if the engine needs to come out to remove the starter.
 
Everything on the motor is freely turning ?

You removed the belts and tried turning the alt, and engine mounted water pump by hand to see if they spin freely?
 
Cheifalen, Excellent thinking. I would not have thought to check the alternator, circulating pump or the power steering pump. I will check these this week along with turning the engine via the alternator (by hand). Thank you again, Bob
 
gl115 said:
hey sorry if gave bad advice about turning engine over with crank bolt.....
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I have no issue with rotating the engine in reverse direction using this bolt. At worst, it will loosen!
But snap one off while rotating standard direction....., and whoah...... you'll be kicking yourself in the rear!

A nylon strap wrench will do the trick if the outer diameter of the balancer is available.
 
RicardoMarine said:
I have no issue with rotating the engine in reverse direction using this bolt. At worst, it will loosen!
But snap one off while rotating standard direction....., and whoah...... you'll be kicking yourself in the rear!

A nylon strap wrench will do the trick if the outer diameter of the balancer is available.
Click to expand...

Thats what I love about these forums, always can learn something.
 
The balancer can get ****ed up if you spin the hub. Only way is really with the flywheel. Strap on the flywheel will not f anything up.

If it ain't something on the motor not turning such as the alt, and the starter turns out to be ok, and the oil looks good on the stick. I would consider pickling the motor, kero, and transmisson fluid filling the motor up till it don't take anymore. Or diesel fluid mixed with tf. Leave it sit for a week.
 
I went to the boat today and here is what we found out. I took both belts off and spun the circulating pump, alternator and power steering unit. All turned freely without any problems. We put the belt back on that goes around the crank to the circulating pump and to the alternator. We adjusted the belt as tight as we could and when I turned the alternator with a wrench the alternaor pulley and belt just slipped. Neither the crank nor circulating pump would turn. I then had my daughter stand on the belt with one foot and turned the alternator with a wrench. Low and behold the crank pulley actually turned. We sprayed more oil into each cylinder and continued to turn the crank and the engine did get a little easier to turn. I had a battery which I just charged and using two cables about 18 "'s long I put one on the starter and the other as ground. I jumped the slave solenoid next to the 50 amp fuse and got a "clinking" noise from the area of the starter. Not the "clicking" noise from a dead battery but just one "clink" when I jumped the solenoid. The "clink" was coming from I guess the starter which is brand new. When I jumped the solenoid, if I held the jumper wire on for about 3 seconds or longer I had the ground wire start to smoke. So what do you men think? Should I try to get the starter out and see if it is "factory defective" or do I have a short that is pulling the volts away from the starter? This is the starter which I had on my old block and it spun the motor around fine and was matched up to the same flywheel. Oh, we also readjusted the shift cable and the prop spins freely in neutral both ways. The neutral cut out switch is adjusted fine as is the remote shift lever for neutral. Do you men think I should loosen the valves? Please give me advice as to what I should do next. Thank you, Bob
 
Bob, you've done most of what would be considered a P of E (process of elimination).
This is good!
While I myself would not be "jumping" or circumventing the factory circuits, I suppose that you have reduced this to a possible starter motor issue.
I'd say that if you are comfortable with your P of E, removing the starter motor and having it checked, would be the next reasonable step.

NOTE: while it may power-up on the bench, the true test would be a "load" test!

As for the valves....... if questionable, go through each one, and perform the 8 stop procedure for setting these statically.
It's basically the same as the 2 or 3 stop, but you will be indexing the crankshaft 90* 8 times, while following the engine firing order.
If you need to learn the procedure, post back!

.
 
Rick, Thank you for your response.

I cannot imagine the starter is bad. It spun my old 350 (which was low on compression) around without hesitation and it had the plugs in it. Now I put it on this new motor and leave the plugs out so there is no compression and it won't turn the motor at all. I believe the valves are too tight but then again they were factory set so they should be right. It does have a roller cam and rockers where the old motor did not. When I felt the rockers they seemed awfull tight but what do I know compared to the factory unless these roller setups are supposed to be that tight. I was thinking since the valves are supposed to be set up now, can I just take say 1 1/2 turns off all the rockers and see if that loosens up the motor? What do you think? Thanx, Bob
 
Well, I'm down to two things. Either the block that Michigan Motorz sent me is drastically wrong and therefore the flywheel is dragging against the coupler or I have a wire wrong that is throwing juice to the negative (black) wires and causing them to melt and smoke. Does anyone have a good detailed wire schematic for a Mercruiser 350 (Chevy), 260 hp, 1987 with 4 bolts in the middle of the valve covers. It is the Thunderbolt IV without any points in the distributer. This will enable me to check everything for a possible mistake in wiring. Thank you, Bob
 
hippie said:
Well, I'm down to two things. Either the block that Michigan Motorz sent me is drastically wrong and therefore the flywheel is dragging against the coupler or I have a wire wrong that is throwing juice to the negative (black) wires and causing them to melt and smoke. Does anyone have a good detailed wire schematic for a Mercruiser 350 (Chevy), 260 hp, 1987 with 4 bolts in the middle of the valve covers. It is the Thunderbolt IV without any points in the distributer. This will enable me to check everything for a possible mistake in wiring. Thank you, Bob
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you refer to the black wires smoking ? what is the purpose of these black wires.??? where do they go ?

the starter has one large positive wire to it,suppling battery power from the solenoid . does that wire smoke? when applying battery power to the starter does it attempt to rotate the motor ? If not the starter/flywheel may be binding. you need a 1/8 in clearance between the starter drive teeth and the flywheel teeth with the starter drive pushed into the start position.
I would not mess with the valve adjustment if you got the engine to rotate by hand.....

leave plugs out until you can get the starter to crank engine.
 
Bob, are you familiar with setting cam follower clearances (aka rocker clearance.... aka setting valves)?
If you want to eliminate this as a potential issue, simply reset them all.

Nut shelling this for you:
Your cam followers are hydraulic, whether flat tappet or roller (makes no difference).
This means in old school terms, they are self adjusting, in order to maintain ZERO lash at the valve stem.
They self adjust via a hydraulically controlled plunger within the cam follower.
The plunger has a finite amount of travel..... (approximately .080" to .100".)
When the rocker arm nut is adjusted correctly, we have "Pre-Set" the depth of the hydraulic plunger (this has all been calculated by OEM engineers).

If we slightly over tighten, we may exceed the plunger's allocated travel distance.
The worst that will/should occur:
A. would be a valve that is not being allowed to fully close/seat.
B. in an extreme case, we bind up a valve spring if the adjustment is extremely off.
C. we may also bend a push rod!

I would think that any good starter motor would have the power to cause this damage, if this were the case, yet continue to turn the engine over.

What is preventing you from at least trying another starter motor?
 
J cat- The black wires are grounds on the wiring harness and are grounded by bolts in the intake and block. As for the starter, I have two heavy red wires coming from the battery and 50 amp circuit breaker and a heavy orange wire from the alternator to the starter. All three go on the same post with a yellow/red wire to a small post. No ground that I can see near the starter. Yes, the starter tries to turn the engine over but acts like it does not have the power. Yet it does not "click" like a dead battery. It goes "clunk" when the starter pushes the bendix out.

Ricardo- The starter is brand new but yet it could be "factory defective". It is a pain to get out without pulling the engine. Speaking of which, it has two bolts. One is long and one is short and they are offset. The bolt nearest the starboard side is tight against the flywheel pan. It is against the pan so tight that I cannot put a socket or box end wrench on it. Does this seem right? Is it possible to remove the flywheel pan without pulling the engine out or taking the starter out? Then I could look for anything binding up. I am hoping to take the starter off this weekend and have Auto Zone test it.
Thank you, Bob
 
hippie said:
................... As for the starter, I have two heavy red wires coming from the battery and 50 amp circuit breaker and a heavy orange wire from the alternator to the starter. All three go on the same post with a yellow/red wire to a small post.
No ground that I can see near the starter.
Yes, the starter tries to turn the engine over but acts like it does not have the power. Yet it does not "click" like a dead battery. It goes "clunk" when the starter pushes the bendix out.

Ricardo- The starter is brand new but yet it could be "factory defective". It is a pain to get out without pulling the engine. Speaking of which, it has two bolts. One is long and one is short and they are offset. The bolt nearest the starboard side is tight against the flywheel pan. It is against the pan so tight that I cannot put a socket or box end wrench on it. Does this seem right? Is it possible to remove the flywheel pan without pulling the engine out or taking the starter out? Then I could look for anything binding up. I am hoping to take the starter off this weekend and have Auto Zone test it.
Thank you, Bob
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Bob, based on what you've posted above....., I see nor hear of any "Common" cable connection to the main lug on the starter motor.
This would be a heavy gauge battery cable.... aka "Common" cable!

The red and orange wires (not to be mistaken for cables) that you speak of, are part of your engine harness and charging circuit.

The "Common" cable that runs from your MBSS (main battery selector switch) must make a direct connection to the main large terminal on the "Solenoid".
The same location as what your charging circuit connects to!

(while this is showing an Outboard, you'll get the idea here. The "Common" connects directly to the solenoid terminal labeled "B" in the next image)
images


If you have an alternate means of powering your engine harness, and if this common cable is absent, there is your problem!

(this schematic is not necessarily Marine, and it does not show a charging circuit. Where it shows "ignition switch", insert the words "starter solenoid" circuit, of which will be your yellow wire.)

outlander-starting-system-circuit-diagram.png


BTW, this style starter motor does not use a Bendix drive.

Also Bob, if this new starter motor is not one of the HTGR/PMGR units, it would behoove you to return it, and purchase a HTGR/PMGR unit. They will outperform the other style, hands down. Much smaller in size, and much easier to R & R as well!
 
Ideally, I'd perform the voltage drop test on each "connection" in the "big wires" supplying current to the starter. Loss of primary function and smoking wires indicate high current draw and you need to find the source. A bad connection will not only induce a huge voltage drop but can also limit the current that flows thru it.

Going from memory, the MIE/MCM manuals suggest a max 0.2VDC drop at each connection. A high current capable clamp on meter will also provide an easy way to obtain the current draw of the starter, under load.

A Ground at the intake is not common; I'd start with the ground cable and relocate it to a preferred location.
 
hippie said:
J cat- The black wires are grounds on the wiring harness and are grounded by bolts in the intake and block. As for the starter, I have two heavy red wires coming from the battery and 50 amp circuit breaker and a heavy orange wire from the alternator to the starter. All three go on the same post with a yellow/red wire to a small post. No ground that I can see near the starter. Yes, the starter tries to turn the engine over but acts like it does not have the power. Yet it does not "click" like a dead battery. It goes "clunk" when the starter pushes the bendix out.

Ricardo- The starter is brand new but yet it could be "factory defective". It is a pain to get out without pulling the engine. Speaking of which, it has two bolts. One is long and one is short and they are offset. The bolt nearest the starboard side is tight against the flywheel pan. It is against the pan so tight that I cannot put a socket or box end wrench on it. Does this seem right? Is it possible to remove the flywheel pan without pulling the engine out or taking the starter out? Then I could look for anything binding up. I am hoping to take the starter off this weekend and have Auto Zone test it.
Thank you, Bob
Click to expand...

inspect the starter /flywheel teeth . I think this may be in need of shims on the starter mounting surface.

you can rotate by hand and the starter does attempt to rotate the engine with the plugs out. I doubt a working starter would fail/internal short just by moving to the newly installed engine.

A high resistance / defective wire/lug will get very hot. usually " AT " the bad /high resistance point. however when wires start smoking something is defective/shorted out..
 
Ricardo- I said battery and should have said battery switch, my mistake. They are correct.

Makomark- I checked the wires at the batteries and they had 12.48 each. At the starter they showed 12.46 at the main post.

J Cat- You said "at" the spot of a short. When I crank by the key the grounds start to smke everywhere. If I jump at the slave solenoid it smokes around there. There is something that just is not right. I'll do as you men suggest, Thank you again, Bob
 
The voltages measured under load or no-load condition?

what about the NEG cables and the starter housing?
 
Bob, does one of us need to purchase Air Fare, so that we can come remove this starter motor for you, so that it can be tested/replaced? :D
 
Ricardo-I'll get to it this coming week Thank you, Bob

Makoman- Voltage was taken while NOT under load. The negative cables were cleaned at the ends and the block was sanded good so as they would make contact.

Thank you, Bob
 
Well my daughter and I went to the boat on Veterans Day. My daughter had studied some wiring schematics on the drive down. She went to the engine and looked around and then asked why there was a black ground wire to the starter. I said there shouldn't be and yes there was. We disconnected it and put it on the ground bolt in back of the engine beside the iol switch. She turned the key and it cranked. So after two years of messing with this it appears to be on the right track.

Thanks to everyone that posted info and helped, Bob
 
It is part of the wiring harness. On the back of a Chevy block there is a grounding bolt. I know it had 3 black wires to it. It turned out I had 2 black wires (one from each battery). I rewired the batteries so I have 1 wire from the 2 batteries to ground. The wire from the wiring harness and the black from the distributer. 3 on the bolt and all is well!!!

Thanks go to everyone again, Bob
 
I trust you have increased her weekly stipend??

don't forget that she can probably exploit her skills during the summer and any marine facility she would care to frequent. many a grown man will pay way too much money for someone to bring their pride and joy "to life" so they can enjoy some time on the water. (it can supplement those college loans, too!)
 
OMFG Finally.................

now we can delete this post.....................................not much to be learned here..
 
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