Need advice - rare Volvo Penta AQ210 sterndrive

[AussieFormula233]

Hello everyone, I've got an oversize plywood version of a Formula 233, approx 3 metre beam and perhaps 26 foot in length. She was built in the 70's/80's and has been fitted with an AQ210, which is the only sterndrive Volvo made with the engine orientation reversed. The flywheel end faces forward, and drives the accessories/pumps off a pulley, and the timing cover end faces backwards, exhaust manifolds are also unique. The engine is a 307 GM and has been rebuilt but never started. The drive is a 270 which I have not seen yet, transom adapter is fitted to hull and in good condition. I have found a place that can source engine circ pump/raw water pump rebuild kits for a reasonable price.

To successfully re-fit this sterndrive, at the minimum I will need to retrofit a set of GM exhaust manifolds, custom cooling hoses, perhaps rebuild pumps, a few seals and repair/replace the 270 leg. I estimate somewhere around $1000-$2000 for all the parts necessary.

I can also source a late model (late 90's) 5.7 GM carburettor mercruiser and Alpha one gen two sterndrive complete and running with warranty for $5000. I've been told there is an adapter plate available also to bolt an Alpha one drive directly to the transom where the cutout is for the Volvo 270 drive.

My question is - would you guys recommend keeping the AQ210 with 270 drive and fixing it up? Or fitting a late model mercruiser? I wouldn't want to be buying a newer sterndrive package, and I don't want any electronics or fuel injection. I have no experience with the 270 drive, as my other boat (a 23 foot caribbean crusader hardtop) has a mercruiser 888 sterndrive. I can post pictures of the AQ210 if anyone is curious.

Also, with the 270 transom adapter fitted, can I fit a 280 leg? Or will a 280 leg and transom adapter fit in the same transom cutout?

Thanks,

Chris

 

[AussieFormula233]

 

[RicardoMarine]

Chris, I've been involved in a small AQ series Volvo Penta drive biz for approximately 23 years or so. I've seen most all AQ series installations.
I don't know quite what your questions are, but here is what I'd recommend doing.
This is going to sound rather harsh, but I'd much rather give you some experienced thoughts, rather than see you spin your wheels on this out-dated equipment.
So forgive my delivery on this......, your best interests are in mind here!


Loose that goofy Chris-Craft wanna-be engine orientation.
I mean the front engine housing, the rear engine adapter, the oil pan, the wedge intake manifold, the crab cap ignition distributor, the Prestolite "Bendix" style starter motor, the sea water pump system, all of it!
It all reeks of bad news for the future!


I'd fit the rear of the engine with a Borg Warner flywheel cover (does not require the I/B starter motor bore as shown here)
You can find good used parts on e-Bay or other.

Fit the 153 tooth flywheel with a Borg Warner drive coupler.
(according the starter motor pictured, your flywheel will be the 153 tooth)

The Holman Moody/Donzi/Eaton style PDS adapter housing will allow the engine to couple to the Volvo Penta transom shield and out drive while facing in the correct orientation.
This is not your PDS adapter....., but is similar (yours is actually 3-1/8" longer)
The style that you have places the engine forward by 3-1/8", over that of the std Volvo Penta B/W adapter housing.

Special note regarding the above:
Pull the PDS and replace the two industry standard bearings and seals.


Add the standard FWD/Mid engine mounts.
(rear mounts are the larger rubber cushions at/in the transom shield)
These mounts are pretty much the same between the V-8 Volvo Penta and the older Mercruiser. Either should work.

Add a Johnson crankshaft sea water pump ($149 on sale recently), and be completely done with that goofy sea water pump system.

Now the engine is orientated correctly for many of the available Volvo Penta components.

You can use Barr's universal 3" exhaust manifolds to accommodate the old 3" Y-pipe.

FYI: The Holley carburetor shown has externally adjustable floats and will have the "peep site" holes in the float bowls.
This carb is not legal today when used in an enclosed engine bay.
Your call on that!



Chris, I've been there/done this.... and many more times than once.

If you were to do the above, you'll be saving yourself from many headaches in the future.
If you need help determining which parts are correct, post back.


.

 

[AussieFormula233]

Thanks for the reply Rick. I've been adding up the cost of parts and i do agree with your approach. What are your thoughts on the AQ series sterndrives when compared to an Alpha 1 mercruiser sterndrive? I've been offered a good price on a complete Alpha 1 gen 2 sterndrive (good condition) that has a seized motor (Leg/transom assembly/manifolds/accessories). I could use the 307 GM long motor I already have minus all the volvo gear, expecting I can get the package for around $2500.

From what I can see, the AQ series 270/280 are very robust and have the bonus of cone clutch gear shifting, but hard to find/expensive for parts. Mercruiser are much easier to get parts for here in Australia.

Chris

 

[RicardoMarine]

The AQ series drive tansom cut-out is too large to fit a Merc A drive into. There is an adapter plate available, but I'd sure not go that route.

The Merc A drive is dog clutch gear engagement, and I'd not wish that on anyone when the V/P is available.

Any and all engine parts for either adaptation (V/P or Merc) will be just about the same, so there is no advantage one way or the other in that respect.
IMO, you'll still want to make the changes to that engine.

When you get the V/P working well, you won't be needing the service that the Merc would otherwise require.
I work on these V/P drives that have not been serviced for years, and they just keep on going. We re-seal them, install new bearing crosses, and send them out the door.
They have earned the "Bullet Proof" reputation.

However, in all fairness, each drive system has their weak and strong points.
Again, your call!


Years ago, I used to own and work on the older Mercs.............. then the light bulb came on!

62,984 posts in the Merc section, and 33,572 posts in the Volvo Penta section.

My friend owns a Marine Salvage Yard where he buys/sells boat parts.
OMC = #1 sales revenue for him.
Merc = #2 sales revenue.
Volvo Penta = #3 sales revenue.

Granted, some of this pertains to a regional thing, but in our area we seem to have a fairly equal amount of all.



.

 

[boatdoc55]

If I had to rely on Volvo Penta for repair work, I would have quit 34 years ago!! Enough said.

 

[RicardoMarine]

If I had to rely on Volvo Penta for repair work, I would have quit 34 years ago!! Enough said.

I believe that's what most would tell you!

Gary, what are your thoughts on my recommendations for him regarding using the B/W parts, etc.?
Either that, are going straight to a Volvo Penta AQ series V-8 flywheel cover?


.

 

[boatdoc55]

I think you're spot on Rick. Get rid of all that garbage. I have never liked belt driven pumps, the mallory ign is junk and there are NO good words for that style starter. I replace those as soon as I see them. Wonder what it has for a "Y" collector? Might be easier to go with the V/P flywheel casing.

 

[bobwinkel]

Don't want to hijack the thread but wouldn't turning the engine around make the prop turn the wrong direction. Would the outdrive reverse gears/shaft be able to carry the loads inposed?

 

[AussieFormula233]

The exhaust collector is a single relief. As for the rotation- yes the engine has a special camshaft for reverse rotation. I would have to fit a conventional camshaft to get normal engine rotation. I'm still partial to keeping the VP leg and not modifying transom, and having cone clutch shifting. I'm currently looking at some 270t/280t complete legs with transom shield, all are 4 cylinder models. Am I right in thinking I can fit a complete 4 cylinder leg, fit my single relief V8 exhaust collector to the "T" shield and fit the "T" shield in the same hole in my transom, then swap the lower drive for a 1.6 B ratio when I find one? Will this work?
Thanks

 

[RicardoMarine]

Don't want to hijack the thread but wouldn't turning the engine around make the prop turn the wrong direction. Would the outdrive reverse gears/shaft be able to carry the loads inposed?

Volvo Penta has never used a RH Reverse engine.
If this engine is now a RH Reverse Rotation, and if turned around, it cannot rotate the transmission in the correct direction.
The sliding sleeve and gear cups cannot lock up.
IMO, he'd be better off if he starts fresh with an automotive core, and builds from there.

The exhaust collector is a single relief. As for the rotation- yes the engine has a special camshaft for reverse rotation. I would have to fit a conventional camshaft to get normal engine rotation.
1..... I'm still partial to keeping the VP leg and not modifying transom, and having cone clutch shifting.

2.... I'm currently looking at some 270t/280t complete legs with transom shield, all are 4 cylinder models.

3.... Am I right in thinking I can fit a complete 4 cylinder leg, fit my single relief V8 exhaust collector to the "T" shield and fit the "T" shield in the same hole in my transom, then swap the lower drive for a 1.6 B ratio when I find one? Will this work?

1..... Good call.

2.... You do not want a "T" drive, IMO. .

3.... As long as you end up with the 1.61:1 over-all ratio, it should work.


NOTE: when changing any transmissions or lowers to another Intermediate housing, critical re-shimming must be done.

 

[boatdoc55]

A "T" drive is a big NO-NO. What a can of worms!! Now, some people seem to think a drive with trim is a "T" drive, so they call them T's. IF you indeed have access to T drives, they have a yoke inside the boat dead center above the transom shield to operate the trim. Stay far away from the "T" drive style. If you need V8 gearing and want to change your's out I have them.

 

[AussieFormula233]

Thanks for all the help and advice guys. Rick, the AQ210 is a factory setup, and is indeed the only arrangement volvo penta made with a reverse rotation engine, and orientation of block back to front. You can double check this on the volvo global site, and I also have a factory parts catalog for this drive which confirms this. When I say a "T" drive, I am referring to 270T and 280T which have a pair of hydraulic cylinders, one on either side of the leg with large cast aluminium shrouds covering them. This is tilt/trim. Where as the standard 270 and 280 are electro-mechanical tilt only, not to be used for trimming the leg underway. Are you both saying to stay away from these "T" drives with trim cylinders? I have heard that the tilt mechanism for the standard drive is very expensive and hard to source. How much could I expect to source a complete 270 or 280 drive with transom shield and all associated paraphernalia from the USA for? Thanks again

Chris

 

[boatdoc55]

Those are not a "T" drive. In the V/P relm the "T" drive is an old outdated power trim system that didn't work so well and are now well dead and buried, Thank God. Those units you post about are older but still in use and work just fine. I don't know what the proper term for them are but I just call them a 270/280 with power trim. I do remember lot's of 280/290 with power trim but not any 270's. There are still lot's of electric tilt systems around if you look. There is nothing wrong with them if you treat them right and not use them for trimming.

 

[AussieFormula233]

Thanks Gary. I have another question which I hope none of you will laugh at. What are your thoughts on VP AQ140's with 280 legs? I've found a very good deal on a pair of AQ140's with 280 legs, as the guy is repowering with an outboard. The engines were rebuilt 10 years ago and haven't run in 2 years, have been kept out of the weather but look fairly average. Legs are in visually good condition. No major problems that owner is aware of, just been neglected. The legs are also power trim/tilt, with the 2 hydraulic rams on either side of the transom shield. Provided they still have clean oil in the sump and no signs of blown head gaskets etc, for around $500, are these good engines to tart up/repaint/freshen up with new timing belt/tensioner, raw/circ water pumps, carby rebuilds, ignition service etc? Or are they very susceptible to expensive failures? I'm quite capable of modifying my transom and fitting new engine bearers for a twin setup, but what do you guys think of these motors and what are some common things that go wrong? How would fuel consumption and power of a single 210HP V8 compare with twin AQ140's (125HP). I saw this setup in an old timber cruiser recently, very neat looking engine compartment, although one of the motors had thrown a timing belt, had the head off and a valve head embedded in piston crown of number 4. I also like the idea of the twins as having a backup in case of failure. Eagerly awaiting your advice.

Chris

 

[RicardoMarine]

Gary, there is/was a 280 PT drive in the earyl 80's. This is the drive with the external cylinders underneath the covers. Those are still OK, but may be hard to source parts for.

1..... Rick, the AQ210 is a factory setup, and is indeed the only arrangement volvo penta made with a reverse rotation engine, and orientation of block back to front. You can double check this on the volvo global site, and I also have a factory parts catalog for this drive which confirms this.

2.... When I say a "T" drive, I am referring to 270T and 280T which have a pair of hydraulic cylinders, one on either side of the leg with large cast aluminium shrouds covering them. This is tilt/trim. Where as the standard 270 and 280 are electro-mechanical tilt only, not to be used for trimming the leg underway. Are you both saying to stay away from these "T" drives with trim cylinders?

Chris,
1.... I may be wrong, but I don't believe that your set up was Volvo Penta.
It's more likely to be an Eaton arrangement with Volvo Penta.
Question: What is the name embossed into the casting of the Borg Warner pattern PDS adapter housing? I can't read it.



Donzi, Eaton, Holman Moody, Chrysler, and perhaps several others, use the Volvo Penta drive, but with their own engine connecting components.
Your set up looks more like an old goofy Chris-Craft engine orientation (on Quaaludes to combat some form of physiological disorder), coupled to a V/P drive.
No offense.... it may have been just fine in it's day.


2.... Perhaps there is some confusion with the information and web site where you are reading this.
As said to Gary above, the 280-PT and 280-DP/PT used twin external hydraulic cylinders.

The 270 T drive was quite different.

The suspension fork was pushed down via a large single cylinder, in order to trim the drive.
Niote the suspension fork in this image.

Now..... as for the transmission, Intermediate and lower units, I believe that these were the same, and could be used with another model drive.
Note that swapping components from one Intermediate to another, invloves re-shimming.

You'll want to steer clear of the "T" drive transom shield, suspension fork and hydraulic trim system.
These were problematic back then, and they are certainly problematic today.

Edit:
The VP AQ140's with 280 legs and with PT would likely be 280 PT's (or first gen 290 drives).
These OHC 4 cylinder engines are good engines, and parts are readily available.
The lower unit ratio is 2.15:1, and are very easy to find should you need to.
All transmissions are of the same gear reduction during these years/models.


.

 

[AussieFormula233]

Rick, I am picking up the original AQ210 sterndrive tomorrow, and will get the numbers your requested. I've had a look at my transom and there's too much modifying required to the transom/engine bearer supports to fit twin AQ140's. Next question- If I buy the pair of AQ140's and 280 legs, I am bound to have plenty of parts and safe to say I can peice together a very good AQ140 with hydraulic tilt trim very cheaply. My hull is around 25 feet long, beam of 2.6 metres. I estimate the weight empty to be around 1000kg. I can fit a single AQ140 with little transom and engine bearer modification, would you think that this setup would have enough power to get such a large plywood hull (empty mind you) on the plane? It makes sense as a cheap option to get her in the water and sea trial etc, and collect parts to do the V8 sterndrive (Volvo Penta) correctly in the mean time. I'll also have a bunch of spare 280 power trim drive parts, as well as a spare AQ140 motor. I realise that's a small sterndrive for a large hull, but I would be happy if this setup would be able to get on the plane without any weight in the boat. Thanks,

Chris

 

[AussieFormula233]

Disregard previous post on AQ140. I've found a healthy, running AQD40 and rebuilt 280 leg with a bunch of new parts, full helm setup, controls/instruments/wiring harness/cables, that a marine engineer is pulling out of a boat to repower with outboards. He wants 2k for the lot, and says that his heavy 23 foot glass hull does 25 knots flat out at 3200rpm. Does this sound about right? And would you recommend this sterndrive package for my purposes? It's all standard and has been rebuilt in the past, but unsure of current hours. Has a new prop, and has a through transom exhaust. Thanks again guys,

Chris

 

[RicardoMarine]

I'd be asking if I could do a sea trial prior to this engine being pulled.

FYI: transmissions from behind lots of torque and horse power, are very likely in need of main drive gear bearings by now.
I see a trend here, and have made it protocol to pull these down and inspect them.
The transmission bearing box needs to removed anyway for a re-seal and/or new bearing crosses (aka U-joints).
Not a deal breaker, but I'd sure pull the main drive gear, and examine these two bearings.

Or.... use a 280/275 transmissions from behind a gasoline 4 cylinder engine, and perform the re-shimming between the trans and Intermediate housing.

.

 

[AussieFormula233]

Thanks for the reply Rick. The AQD40 only has 135HP so its still on par with the output of an AQ140 or similar, but will be reving much less and more economical. He's had the drive pulled down and inspected professionally, new seals and repainted. But I will inspect for myself, as you say. Sea trial not possible, but I can see the motor running on a stand. I was hoping to find the intercooled (or aftercooled?) AQAD40 that has 165 horsepower, but I think the AQD40 is a very good deal. I also wouldn't want to have to replace the intercooler $$$$. I also read somewhere on this board that the engine will pick up 5hp running a thru transom exhaust as opposed to standard thru leg? Can the turbocharger on these engines be rebuilt by any competent turbo shop or is it a volvo dealer specific thing? Just trying to think of all the things that could go wrong and how much they are. I've read that the AQD40 uses a 1.6 ratio leg, is this correct? In the end, if the diesel goes pear shaped, I'll have the right leg ratio to drop a petrol V8 in.

Chris

 

[boatdoc55]

I'd be all over that AQD40 if all is OK with it. Yes, the leg will work with the V8 gasser. The AQAD was a nicer engine but for that price you can't go wrong if in fact all is good. I don't think I would run the exhaust thru transom, would get rather loud on a long run. 5 HP isn't worth the noise.

 

[AussieFormula233]

Thanks for the reply Gary. Any ideas where I could get the exhaust collector for a 280 transom shield and AQD40? I guess I will have to wait to see but I assume it's a single bypass shield? I spoke today with a fellow who has the AQD40 in a 28 foot fibreglass hull made here in Australia, model is a Chivers Commander. I expect it's quite a bit heavier than mine but he says he has plenty of power and cruises well, gets up on the plane etc etc, so I've got more faith in the setup. I've had a good look at the 307 GM motor and both my circ and raw water pumps are rebuilt, looks as though all I would need is to retrofit some chev/mercruiser exhaust manifolds and risers, new distributor cap and points etc, all the cooling hoses and perhaps thermostat cover/rear cooling distribution outlet cover. I think my way ahead is to fit the AQD40 when it is available (4 weeks time) and I will potter around finding bits for the V8 in my spare time. Sorry Rick, still haven't got the number of the PDS. When it stops raining, i'll get all the numbers off it, the front engine mount has the original volvo ID plate on it too.

Chris

 

[RicardoMarine]

Chris, if your transom shield has only one relief on the Stbd side, then it will be correct for the AQD40.
If memory serves me, the single large down tube (for the OHC 4) should work.
However, some do not have a relief port, in which case a rubber button block off is used in place of the rubber hook.

If you are using the first gen 290 transom shield, then I believe that all use a relief.
(example only)

 

[AussieFormula233]

Are all 40 series (aqd, aqad,tmd) engines of the same era fitted with the same head,exhaust manifold,turbo, crank etc spite the HP differences?

 

[RicardoMarine]

That I cannot answer.
You'd have to do an engine parts search, and compare part number by part number..... or speak with an older well seasoned V/P diesel expert.

 

[AussieFormula233]

No worries, thanks Rick. Well I went through all my parts today, I have both manifolds, both end plates, but missing both risers. Everything else on the motor checks out, rebuilt. Both raw water and circ pump rebuilt (have found I can get full rebuild kits for these for around 300 the pair), originally had a carter 4 barrel (AFB perhaps) but is fitted with a rebuilt 600 holley 4 barrel, and the intake manifold is volvo with the angle of the carb built in, not a removeable wedge. Distributor is a rebuilt Mallory unit, and I also found the overpressure valves unique to the original risers on this motor. The PDS is complete with the collar and 2 large donuts. The number on the PDS looks like 1.897657, and my Parts catalogue for the AQ210 shows it as 897668. I can take photos of the parts catalogue to prove it is all factory if you wish, including intake manifold, and cast iron sump. I'm about to clean the motor up and put some oil down the bores. My plan still remains to fit the AQD40 and 280 leg, but if I am clever when doing so, I can make some custom engine bed plates that sit on my timber bearers. I can drop the diesel in with the good 280 leg (with my transom already suited to a 270/280 shield) and in my spare time, get the V8 together as a spare motor or if i'm unhappy with power etc. and can drop in the same spot with its own bed plates on the timber bearers. Without having started this 307 chev, all I can see needing doing is a pair of manifolds (late model low hour mercruiser items with central risers for 500) points/leads/plugs, oil and filter (although it has been stored with clean oil) and a thorough clean up. Will post some pics once she's tidy. What do you all think of this plan?

Chris

 

[AussieFormula233]

Another interesting note- both the circ water and raw water pumps are "detroit/sherwood" units, cast into both housings. The circ pump also has direction of rotation arrows cast, which oppose the engine rotation. Parts catalogue shows direction of impeller vanes, which coincides with engine rotation, so must be a common casting for that pump housing. Just to confirm, engine is definitely reverse rotation and has it's own special camshaft/firing order. Although, the engine orientation is back to front, so drive is still the standard rotation to sterndrive leg. Sterndrive.com is able to get rebuild kits for these water pumps still. I have also deemed the starter as a deal breaker if I can't get parts. Mine is rebuilt, but the helix on the starter pinion is reversed, an automotive starter pinion/helix would not work. I gave the engine a good cleanup, it does have a fair bit of scale in the block cooling jacket.. but time will tell. Turns over freely, tomorrow I will spin it on the starter with no plugs. I'll strip the carby and clean out the internals of the distributor (no advance mechanism?!?) and then some new plugs and leads, see if she will fire.

Chris