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Motor surges at high RPM's

R

Reel Salty

New member
I have a 2009 Honda 225 HP which has 670 hours on it. It has run beautifully the entire time--but now...... 2 weeks ago I went thru the Ballard Locks(Seattle) for a leisurely cruise with my wife. We ran out slowly at maybe 1500-2000 rpms, then increased to perhaps 3000rpm. About half way to our lunch I speeded up to about 45-4700rpms. No problem for about 60 seconds,. Then the motor choked and rpms dropped to maybe 1200 and motor started surging between 1200 and 3500rpms. Thought motor was going to kill, but it didn't- just surged wildly. Backed off the throttle and almost immediately motor smoothed out . It ran perfectly around 3000 rpms Headed back home. Tried increasing throttle to about 4500 and again it surged wildly. Backed off throttle to about 2900rpm and no problem. Looked at glass bowl in in-line fuel filter and appeared to be full and no water observed.

Took it to authorized Honda dealer they replaced something called an IC and the IC control panel that they said was recalled. They checked and said fuel lines good and no water in gas- go out and run it.

Back out repeated running at 3000 as I left Locks no problem! Further out increased to about 45-4600 rpm and Holy Cow.!! Motor started surging almost immediately. Tack went from 4500 to 650 to 1250 to 670 to 2500- just all over the map. Motor didn't kill. Felt like I was getting whiplash. Tried various speeds , ran well under 3300 but increasing throttle to 4500 or so produced bad surging.

Back to dealer. The hook it up to their computer and it all looks good they say.They suggest maybe the valves are bad, but they plan to talk to the Honda factory tec support. well about a week and a half has gone by and no answer.

Sounds like fuel to me , but I am definitely not a mechanic and not a do-it-yourselfer. They have done all the maintenance regularily since I got the boat with 121 hours on the motor.


I am pretty frustrated.
 
Fuel is where I would start.

Have you had anyone squeeze the fuel bulb as the trouble occurs.

I am not sure which fuel filter that you are referring to that is full of fuel but the system could be sucking air or one of the fuel lines could be collapsing internalling...blocking the fuel flow at high speed....but allowing enough fuel to flow at slow speed.

If the problem goes away when someone squeezes the bulb, then it is definitely a fuel flow problem. Then you just have to track it down....which is not always very easy. I usually use a 6 gallon tank and start by connecting it up directly to the engine. If the problem is still there, then the issue is on the engine. If it goes away, then it is somewhere on the boat.

Was this "recall" an O2 sensor and ECM? I do not know of any recent recalls on the 225.

Mike
 
On the 225, most times the problem with fuel feed can be traced to one of three things - (1) a deteriorated high pressure fuel filter, (2) water or junk in the VST, (3) or a clogged inline fuel pump filter in front of the injector rail. There is also a fuel filter screen in there somewhere.
 
FYI - Honda service bulletin # 71 covers a problem where the ECM does not detect a failed HO2 sensor for serial numbers
BAGJ-1600001 ~ 1600527 and BAHJ-1600001 ~ 1600175

Honda service bulletin # 70 also covers an HO2 problem for the following.

AFFECTED UNITS A2 ~ A5
 BF200
BAEJ-1000001 ~ 1309999
BAFJ-1000001 ~ 1309999
BF225
BAGJ-1000001 ~ 1309999
BAHJ-1000001 ~ 1309999

AFFECTED UNITS A6 and AK0
 BF200
BAEJ-1400001 ~ 1509999
BAFJ-1400001 ~ 1509999
BF225
BAGJ-1400001 ~ 1509999
BAHJ-1400001 ~ 1509999
 
Chawk and Hondadude,

Thank you for your impute. Your suggestions sound very reasonable. Monday, when the dealership is open I will be going in to follow up on these thoughts. I have been searching thru some of your earlier posts and you provide a lot of good "stuff" on this issue. It is now difficult to imagine that my problem is anything but fuel related.

When the problem is finally resolved I'll post the "fix" so it may be useful to others.
 
Well, went back to dealer today with my fuel problem suggestions that you gave me, They said oh yes we look at that stuff first. I am not at all sure that was true.

They recommend a valve job. The motor has 670 hours. I am quite uncomfortable with the valve job idea. Is this a reasonable fix for a surging problem only at higher RPM's?
 
If they look at those suggestions first....did they take the motor out and run it on the water to see how it really fails...or at least run it in a test tank?

When you say valve job, do you mean valve clearance adjustments?

Manual says that the valve clearances should be checked/adjusted every year or every 200 hours, whichever comes first.....although most people do not have it done that often. So...that is probably good to do anyway.

The valves are the last place that the fuel passes before entering the cylinders. So, theoretically, the clearances could impact the fuel flow.

Looking back at your original post, you said that it happened around 4500 rpm. The VTEC normally kicks in around 4600 - 4700 rpm. That does change how the valves are working. This may just be a coincidence. But if something is messing up associated with the VTEC, it could mess up the way the valves are working.

Have they told you what the cylinder compressions were? Did they do a leakdown test? I presume that they checked the timing marks.

What is their next step if the valve job does not work?

A lot of questions.....I wish I had the magic answer. Unfortunately, it may be a painful process of eliminating all possible problems before the answer is found. Too bad the dealer is not giving you that "warm and fuzzy feeling" that they are doing all they can.

Mike
 
The normal V-Tec surging on the 225, if it occurs at all, starts in at around the 4400 to 4700 rpm. Typically it varies rpm's by 100 - 150 rpm, max. It tends to straighten itself out after around 10 minutes of running at constant throttle. I get impatient, so I typically will kick my motor up to 4800 or down to under 4400, and the problem goes away.

You need to get a lot more information than you are getting - as Mike suggested, compression numbers, leak down test, etc. Confirm that they changed the high pressure filter because what you described definitely sounds like a fuel feed problem to me.

I am very skeptical of a problem with the valves UNLESS the fault lies in the electric control module (ECM.) Valves getting out of adjustment would be a slow process and would show up as a creeping change in performance. To most of us, a "valve job" means removing the heads of the engine and refurbishing or replacing the valves, valve guides, seals, and testing/replacing the valve springs. That is a very expensive proposition and is not call for, yet. In fact, if the values are kept in even half-way adjustment, the valves on this engine should never need to be touched unless you lose a timing belt.

If the ECM was faulty, it should show up on the HDS readout/printout.

It doesn't sound like you are inclined to do your own diagnostics by pulling fault codes, and so forth. Consequently, maybe you need to find another shop that really knows these Hondas and can do the correct diagnostics.

One word of advice - if you take your engine into a shop for maintenance or repair, make sure that they know you want to see any parts replaced. The very good shop that I use for the 400 hour maintenance schedule does that routinely and takes the time to explain exactly what they found and why a particular part needed to be changed out.
 
On Monday when I went back in to the dealer, I told them that I was experiencing a crisis of confidence in them. They bumped me up to the head over maintenance and said give me 2 days to get to the bottom of this. Well, tomorrow is day 2 . We shall see!!

I know that I am not authorizing a valve job at this time . Hondadude, you wondered what they told me. I think the tech told me " I think we need to do the valves" I assumed that meant doing more than adjusting them and even prior to hearing your comments, this really did not make much sense to me and that is when I started looking for other advise.

Your thoughts to me do make sense , and I very much value your thoughts.

It is quite likely that I need to change dealerships. They are a big dealership and they are located about a 2 minute boat cruise from my moorage so it has been very convenient, BUT effective and open advise is more valuable than convenience. We shall see.

No, I don't pull my own codes. I don't have any equipment for that or the knowhow.

Again, thank you for providing your advise.

Gary
 
Gary, pulling fault codes off of the 225 ECM is very simple to do and requires only a paper clip and no more than 10 minutes of your time. If you have the four-light key switch panel installed on your boat, and if you are interested, send me an e-mail to me at [email protected] and I will send you a one page write-up of how to do it. I will also include a PDF file with what each of the codes mean and the basic diagnostics. This may not be relevant for your current situation, but it could be useful in the future.
 
Well, I got my boat back this afternoon about 3PM. they tell me it is fixed. Just in time for our 2 day shrimp season. Spot schrimp season opens tomorrow at 7A M until 1 PM. Limit 80/ person. No time to test it out, just time to load it up- traps, line puller, cans of cat food 1800 feet of leaded line, etc.

Asked them what they found. They said that they went thru the whole checklist that I got off this site and all good, and then they adjusted the valves .Theyn said that they ran the motor this AM at upwards of 4500 rpm and they recreated the problem then adjusted valves and could not recreate the surge problem. I hope all is good. So.... at 5:45 tomorrow morning I will be going thru the Ballard Locks and out into the Puget Sound. I will then be racing to get to my secret shrimp spot( only about 250 people know about it). So, what do you think,,, will I be part of this race or will I be sitting in the middle of Puget Sound?

So who votes that problem is fixed and who thinks it is not fixed. I will post the results of my trip manana and how many shrimp were caught. Limit 80/ person- We will have 4-maybe 5 people.
 
Good luck on the shrimping. However, I am skeptical that valves out of adjustment alone was the source of your problems as you initially described.
 
OK, here is the day in review.

First, we are eating shrimp tonight, but we did not come close to limiting out.

The boat and motor. -- Whew what a boatload of boats going thru the Locks. About 15 minutes to get thru and an hour to wait turn. Motor running OK, but then killed a couple of times at or just above idle. Once thru, ran at about 7 knots for about 3/4 mile leaving Locks- all good. Increase to about 3900 RPM's and all good and smooth for a mile or so. OK let's go for it. Throttle up to 4500 and very smooth and responsive, then up to 5000 and motor running well , no hesitation, no surge. 20 minutes later we are at shrimp area. We drop pots, pull pots and repeat process to many times. This is done at rather low speeds during the morning. Motor frequently kills as we shift from low speed to neutral to pick pot. Will restart with no problem and run smoothly. Lost count of motor kills , but probably around 20 times. during our 3 hours on the water. About 1 PM we head back and with rough water I am running at about 3900 RPM and seems OK, but feels like just a little bit of surging, but so small that I could be imagining it. Water smooths out and I figure why not open it up and see what happens. OK, up to 5500 RPM and I hit 37 miles per hour. Feels smooth and good no sign of the surging . I almost never run this fast. Seems to me that a couple of years ago when I bought boat I was able to get speed up to about 42 and RPM's closer to 6000 or 6200. Not now , 5500 is max. Approaching the 3/4 mile entrance to Locks so slow down to 7 knots. Motor kills once , but starts immediately. We move on and approach locks "waiting wall" slow down to 3-4 knots, put in neutral, Motor kills but restarts immediately. OK ready to take turn along with 8 other boats to enter lock, at very low speed, Much start, neutral, start, slow down, etc. ,ect. Motor kills a couple times. This is a bit nerve-racking, but what choice. Large trawler in first , me 2nd slide in between trawler and concrete lock wall- 6 inches from wall and about 18 inches from trawler fenders, OK we did it, tie down, motor didn't kill. 6 more shrimpers slide in behind me. Locks close and we lift about 14 feet. I am first out of the gate and now in fresh water and wife says lets go to Chinooks for lunch. OK we cruise with a 7 knot limit and then go into the no wake zone at Fisherman's Terminal. This requires me to run somewhere around 650 rpm, can't keep boat running reliably that slow so need to run a little faster. We start to tie up and harbormaster comes over to help me tie up. Oh, oh, he is really there to tell me that" don't I know this is a no wake zone ?" Lunch is good and no ticket.

We head back and I approach my slip. Have momentum- motor kills, hit side of slip, but restart before bow hits end of slip. whew! New friend from locks come from his slip and says nice parking job! He has limited, I didn't. Oh well, I'll live to fight another day.

Just got to get this thing fixed.
 
Sounds like a somewhat good day. At least it is ending on a very positive note with eating shrimp.

I guess the good news is....the valve adjustment helped stabilize the surging.

Valve clearances that are too loose can affect the idle. And of course, could affect full throttle....limiting the fuel intake to the cylinders. The valves may not be opening up as far as they should.

I may be jumping to conclusions, but I am assuming that the idle was ok before and that the valve adjustment was all that they did. That would suggest to me....something still going on with the valve adjustment.

There are other things like carboned up Idle Air Control and Throttle Body that can affect it too. Although, the motor started up all the time...which the Idle Air Control has a lot to contribute to that success. So, it may be just fine.

It sounds like they are going in the right direction. I just hope that they are being gentle with the charges.

It may not seem like it, but this is probably as frustrating for them as it is for you. There is nothing worse than the lingering problem, that you think you fixed but keeps coming back. Yuk!

Hope they can get it fine tuned for you.

Just keep thinking how good those shrimp were.

Mike
 
Update on engine surging. The deler has found the problem and has FIXED IT. The engine once again is working very smoothly. It has been almost 3 months of problem.

The problem started with the O2 sensor and it was replaced. Then the ECM was replaced , problem persisted. They went thru the fuel system, lines, filters, strainers. Decided to adjust valves, problem better but not right. called in Honda factory tech and he could not find problem. No error codes tripped, but readings were not quite right, but not enough to send code/ Tech said let's replace every sensor in the engine. Done, but problem persisted. Dealer tech said that he was going to readjust the valves again. He did so but this time used a new set of gauges from Snap On Tools , this time. They told me that first time was with a set of poor quality . Really don't know, if that can be be the cause, BUT I do know that My 225 motor now runs like it just came out of the factory.

I can't even begin to know how many hours they spent on all this, but it was a LOT!! The good news is that they told me that there will be no charge , because this was on a come-back as they did not diagnose it correctly when I kept bringing it back for the same problem. They were very apologetic about the long term it took and the tech with 15 years experience told me that he was very embarrassed by his inability to diagnose this one. He kept mumbling that he had to be missing something. He was the one who first said he wanted to adjust the valves and did so and was the one who decided to re-look at a readjustment.

So, boat working like a dream, and no charge. I am happy.
 
Ditto on that I'm glad it's fixed. But remain skeptical. The fact that you were not getting any alarms, but they changed out ALL of the sensors is strange. New valve gauge vs. old gauge is also strange. Oh well, if it's fixed, it's fixed and at no cost - that's good.
 
Yes, I agree that the fix is strange. The whole thing left me skeptical, confused, questioning their competency, and wondering if I just had a lemon motor. I know that I did not do any "fix-up" to the motor to screw it up as I have never even taken off the cover. All I really know is that the motor runs as good right now as at anytime that I have owned it.

Thank you guys for all the help. It helped me keep my sanity on the matter.
 
I have a similar problem with a Honda 80 with only 25 hrs on it, but it has been doing it since 15 hrs still trying to work it out but will be suggesting they look at the adjustment. Mine goes fine until you do a long run flat out then will start to stumble like it goes in to limp home mode then when it cools down its good again for a while then limp home surging no acceleration.
Reel Salty said:
Yes, I agree that the fix is strange. The whole thing left me skeptical, confused, questioning their competency, and wondering if I just had a lemon motor. I know that I did not do any "fix-up" to the motor to screw it up as I have never even taken off the cover. All I really know is that the motor runs as good right now as at anytime that I have owned it.

Thank you guys for all the help. It helped me keep my sanity on the matter.
Click to expand...

Cheers
 
I have a HONDA 225 (2002). Anything above 4200 RPM's the motor would surge, RPMS fall then increase as motor recovered then surged again. This was repetitive at over 4200 RPMS.
Fixed: Removed the VST tank and complete overhaul/cleaning. Motor surging over 4200 rpms fixed.
 
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