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May have stumbled onto water in my 2006 225

F

FFMedic75

Member
Have a 2006 225 and, after having it 100 hours, it started running really rough. Within minutes it was surging up and down (at idle) before stopping with an alarm (PGM-FI Buzzer Warning System per PG 18-11 in the "Bible"). Figured I'd look at the oil as I fought to understand the alarm aka finding it in the book. When the color looked 'off' and I had goupy sand at the dipstick's rubber seal, I did some looking on the Honda Outboard Forum for 'water in engine.' WOW! I've got some investigating to do!

About to run and get some oil and a filter and also pull the plugs. Plugs come in tomorrow. I'm curious to see what the plug condition shows me, if anything. Will also look around the thermostat housings (changed the thermostats and seals shortly after getting the boat) and the other areas towards the VST tank. I do have quite a bit of corrosion around the VST tank, but not as bad as the picture in the link below.

https://www.thehulltruth.com/boatin...miss-maintaining-your-honda-bf200-bf225s.html

I also have to "retrieve the codes from the EPROM in the on-board engine computer - the Electronic Control Module or ECM" as CHawk_Man suggested in many a post. Just so I'm sure I'm remembering the alarm correctly...

It seems the alarm I'm getting is NOT related to the water in the oil issue, correct? Although I may have stumbled onto something else.....
 
So pulled the plugs and they were dry. Drained the oil and, see photo, I thought a barista was making a fancy cappuccino for me! Flushed the engine with 4 quarts. Shunted the service connection and got 1 long blink... Book shows possible culprits, but the Service Bulletin #56 is what got me to order the “upgrade” kit. Will talk with my mech about labor costs and decide if it’s something I’ll tackle... I mean, if it takes a talented amateur 5 to 6 hours, as chawk_man states, this shouldn’t take me more than a few days! ��

I don’t recall any situation where water would have overtaken the motor, but I do tilt it up when docked at my seawall overnight (or longer if I can’t take her out the next day). Perhaps one of our Florida “showers” was enough to get the current result? If it wasn’t one of the other causes, of course...

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Here are a few of the plugs... And under the cowling at the area of the VST. I checked the thermostat housings (looked fine - no signs of water leaking) and, looking further back beyond the areas around the VST, I didn’t not see any signs of water leaks from behind the manifold cover.
C58A582E-0704-48A4-9322-3CCF75AC91F8.jpg2AB9A732-C82F-4B85-8CB7-03B9869901E6.jpg12A88C69-F3EF-4D88-AE9C-A1437A52FA5C.jpg

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I’ll do the “upgrade” as noted in Service Bulletin 56 and then see how she runs.
 
The plugs look like an OK burn.

It looks like you may have two (or more) issues that may or may not be related. Pull codes and see what the alarm is all about. Will try to upload procedure and codes sheet below:

View attachment Procedure for Getting Fault Codes.pdf

View attachment MIL fault codes.pdf



As for water in the oil. There are several possibilities. First, is check the thermostats and make sure neither is stuck open. A cool running engine will allow water/gas to accumulate in the oil because natural condensation will not be evaporated and the rings will not seal as well as they should. While checking, make sure corrosion has not compromised the area below the thermostat seat. That could allow water to get into the oil.

One of the seals on the water line where it goes through the oil pan could have failed. (Cannot give you the reference, since I'm away from home and no manual.) See part # 6 at: https://www.boats.net/catalog/honda...6-la-vin-bagj-1400001-to-bagj-1499999/oil-pan

There is also the possibility of a cracked head or block. A cracked head is fairly rare on these engines. A cracked block is extremely rare. But a pressure test may be called for if nothing else shows up.
 
THanks, CHawk. Since I have water in the engine, I figured I'd do the exhaust/oil pan seal upgrade. Then once it's all back together, with the parts in the kit, new plugs, and reset code, I'll run her and see what happens. Since the code I pulled was exactly what's referenced in the SB 56, I opted to do the upgrade (redesigned exhaust ports, redesigned oil pan seal, new HO2S sensor, exhaust pipe gaskets, and a new o-ring). Once we're all back together, I'll report in with the results. I'm praying it isn't anything else you listed!

Thanks for the PDFs!
 
Be sure you do the exact replacement for the HO2 sensor. Send me an e-mail asking for Honda SB #70, which provides the details. [email protected]

Normally, the replacement exhaust tubes, per SB #56, would not fix water in the oil UNLESS water was actually sucked into one of the lower cylinders and got past the rings. If that were the case, you would likely have bigger problems. While you have the engine striped down for the exhaust tube replacement, I would also replace the seals on the water tube that goes through the oil pan.
 
Thought I might just chip in here. To carry out the mod exhaust tube replacement should not take more than 2 hours, 3 if you take your time. Whilst you are going that far, may I suggest you remove the power head and inspect the aluminum cover over the top engine mounts along with the rubber seal as I have seen these deteriorate over time allowing splashed water to enter the oil pan. The parts I am referring to are 50166 ZY3 000 and 50168 ZY3 000. You don't seem to have a lot of water in the oil which leads me to think the above suggestion might pay to check.
 
All was well until a few days ago. I noticed the idle was just slightly off and chalked it up to sitting idle for a few months while I did the SB 56. Took her out and she was running fine for about 15 minutes. As I came up on plane the buzzer activated and the motor went into safe mode. No lights on indicators. I recall that was either the 'oil level' or 'water separator.' Emptied the external separator and checked the oil. Oil was clear except for a few foam bubbles, so I chaulk that up to the recent upgrade and figure I'll change the oil upon my return to the house. Tried getting her on plane a few more times, but to no avail...

Idle to the ramp and trailer home. Drain the water separator and find one wire has corroded off (may have severed it while removing cup from mount). Weill order a new cup....

Pull dipstick and oil is near white! I figure the thermostats opened and sent water into the block. Perhaps that's why the oil was clear when checked on the water, but milky after running it for another 20 minutes as I idled home?

Pulled the plugs and #4 was fouled (see pictures).
Plug 4.jpg
Plugs 1 2 3.jpg
Plugs 5 6.jpg

Will do a compression check today, but won't be able to warm the engine. How will that affect my results?

Looks like I'll be pulling manifolds and heads, correct?
 
Do compression and leak down test. Cold engine will likely drop 20 - 30 PSI so you should be seeing in the 165-175 psi range. I could even be less than that. The key is that the lowest reading should not be more than 10% below the highest reading.

Just trying to think through the various ways water can get into the oil. Obviously, a blown head gasket would do it. Possible crack in head or block, but that is very rare on these engines. Did you check for corrosion breaks under the thermostat seats? That could explain the fouled # 4 plug.

When you did SB # 56 are you sure you got the water pipe back correctly with new grommet? See page 5 of the SB. In fact, thinking about that, that is the first place I would look.
 
Looking at number 4 spark plug I 'm guessing you have a corrosion issue in that head, the water is spraying into that combustion area and getting past the rings into the crankcase. I see no alternative other than to dismantle the engine. First up tho I would drain the oil, fill with fresh oil and dry run the engine for 30 - 60 seconds to flush out the water contamination and prevent the bottom end from rusting whilst you try and find where the water is getting in
 
chawk: It is possible I dislodged the water tube a bit while wrestling with the lower unit reinstall. However, wouldn't I have seen a major amount of water in the oil when I first pulled the dipstick while out on the water?

I'll put new thermostats in ~1 year ago, but will pull them to inspect the housing area.

iang6766: GREAT!! What's even more discerning is the powerhead was replaced back in 2016. Previous owner had water flowing from the cowling and, upon breaking down the engine, mechanic found a machined hole in the block. Honda wouldn't replace it, so a new block was purchased. (See attached receipt)
View attachment 19724

By 'dry run' you mean let the engine pee out what water remains in the circulating system, correct?

On that note, what is the circulation pattern? I've tried to interpret the 'water line description' diagram as seen on PG 8-2, but I'm not sure I'm reading it correctly. Water circulates around all components (exhaust manifold & cylinder block jacket) until the thermostats open, sending the water where??
 
By dry run I mean with no water circulating, just run the engine out of the water without muffs, this will circulate clean uncontaminated oil.The fact that it is a new block narrows the problem down to the cylinder heads.You will more than likely find the issue when you remove the exhaust manifolds. Have you done a compression test yet as Chalk suggested?
 
Got it... and circulated the 'clean' oil. Also just did the compression check - cold - and here are the results:
#4 155 #1 160
#5 155 #2 160
#6 160 #3 180

That was the first shot. I know my batteries are a bit down after sitting for so long. Have to ge myself a charger....

Going to do the leak down test now. Do I need to disconnect any hoses to notice any air loss from the #4 cylinder? Or just do the test and start pulling the exhaust manifold off the port side?
 
No hoses off, if you have a valve leak you will here air escaping at the prop hub for exhaust or air intake for inlet. Looking at your comps, they are not great, interested to see if they come up with a full. battery. Just as a matter of interest, how low does the engine sit in the water?
 
Longest I've had the boat in the water, in the year I've owned it, was one week. After running her each day, I'll flush and tilt the engine up. Otherwise it's on a trailer in a yard... or in my driveway since October! Ha! Soon it will be on a lift in the backyard. Previous owner had it in a boat barn and put 516 hours on it since new in 2005 (16 hours were since rebuild).

Leakdown 4.jpeg

Here's #4. All the other cylinders tested 20% or 30%, with the PSI dropping 2 PSI (from 10 to 8) on each.
 
Not really. I can hear it hissing through the spark plug cylinder, but even tried used a stethoscope to listen around the manifold and thermostat tube. I hope it's something at the level of the exhaust.
 
OK... Started to pull the exhaust manifold and realized I never revisited the leakdown test on #4. Will I still be able to do the leakdown on #4 with the manifold off?

Cleaned the gasket areas on the manifold and block. My gasket didn't look too bad and, as I started scrubbing it, the coating came off at the bubbling areas (where the water runs across the gasket). Stopped that and figure I'll purchase a new gasket even though the Honda mechanic said they typically reuse them if they aren't too messy.

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Pulled the starboard thermostat and the housing has no holes/corrosion damage. Tested thermostat --> opens at ~160.

Did leak down again on #4. Can hear the hiss when listening at the prop. All signs point to the #4 exhaust valve leak... How does an exhaust valve allow a significant amount of water into the engine? I'm not getting it. The exhaust valve leak is a symptom, correct? Nonetheless, looks like I'll be going to the valve seat... Perhaps I'll come across where the water is intruding as I get the block off.

In going back over the threads, I did NOT perform the inspection/replacement of the rubber seals at the engine mounts found under the powerhead.
 
Firstly,never reuse exhaust gaskets in a saltwater environment, a small leak can be so destructive it's not worth the risk. You have had water on No4 sparkplug, you more than likely have a rusted valve seat, you have to remove the head for inspection at which point you must have the head pressure tested, after that is done we will have a clearer picture of what's going on.
 
Roger that. I ordered new gaskets for the port side (from exhaust manifold to head).

Having the head pressure tested can be done at any marine engine shop, correct? Or am I better off taking it to the Honda/Tohatsu shop nearby?
 
Update on the engine: Had the heads decked and valves polished (3 replaced). Went by the local Honda/Tohatsu dealer and asked them if they'd put it back together for me... and I have all the new parts. "Not a problem..." They put her back together and I take her out for a test ride. About to get on plane when I the oil alarm blares and the engine goes into limp mode. Able to get her on plane only if I do it ever so slowly... but she goes into limp mode after about 30-60 seconds. Idle her back home, when I turn on my hose to flush, there's water coming out the back of the cowling... Behid the VST... I know there's a water line back there, so maybe it's a cooling thing too? Take her back to the dealer... Show the guys the video. I also ask them to water test her for me after they reconnect the hose. They reconnect the water line to the VST and she runs great in their tank. However, when they water test, they get the same alarm I was getting. They pull the lower unit and find the oil pickup is clogged and the thrust bearing is outside spec. Mechanic says, "Let's see if the pickup is the issue because if it's the thrust bearing, we have to pull the powerhead off... and this powerhead looks new or rebuilt?" I tell him the powerhead "was replaced 15 hours (1 year) before I bought it...I've put 100 hours on it" His reply, "I can't believe they didn't replace the thrust bearing when they did the powerhead... But we aren't there yet..."

Well, we're there... Cleaned the pickup and got the same alarm. So they;re now pulling the powerhead and replacing the thrust bearing and relief spring. Will test the oil pump. I'm should get the cowlings repainted after all this! It'll be an (almost) new engine!!!
 
I certainly hope not... Will let you know the diagnosis. Neighbor drove by last Thursday and said the motor was off the hull (and the hull/trailer in the parking lot).
 
Apparently the thrust bearing that was installed, when the bock was replaced in 2016, was for a 250hp. After they replaced that, and oil pump, and a few other parts, the shop owner took her out for a water test. Got on plane and, as he turned the boat, the same oil alarm activated. Each try thereafter to get on plane ended with the same alarm. So they've got a call into Honda, but he thinks, with everything they've replaced and tested, the crank may be damaged.... I told him to 1) give me a dollar figure on where we are 2) what will he give me on trade in 3) price a Tohatsu 250

That's not where I expected this to go.... iang6766, you hit the nail on the head!
 
one has to ask, how can they say there must be something wrong with the crank, did they not remove it and carry out a full clean and inspection of all components? The block usually doesn't survive a thrust washer failure.......
 
Yeah, it's speculation on the crank... But if the block usually doesn't survive a thrust washer failure, replacing the block is at least $7k. Go figure...
 
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