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Honda 225 Outboard Ignition Issues - Won't Start

R

rsamsel

Member
I'm throwing one more hail mary to see if anyone can assess what the heck is going on with my setup.

2004 Honda 225 on a walkaround

Came home from a day of the boat running perfectly. The starter motor on the 225 was running when we got out of the pickup. We confirmed the boat ran fine and everything was working correctly.

I THOUGHT it was the ignition. I replaced it with a new ignition. It is the six pin Honda ignition.
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I wired the new ignition in. The boat turned on and started for about 1 second. Now it won't start. I have tons of 'weird' issues such as beep alarm not resetting....beeping fast when the boat is turning over sometimes....sometimes a steady tone from the beeper. Just chaos. It doesn't seem consistent. The biggest problem now is it won't even start. I think I lost spark on the motor. I'm sure it has something to do with the ignition not telling the motor it's time to fire.

I am lost I have confirmed all connections behind the dash. I have greased every connector...checked fuses....confirmed the new ignition is wired right...etc. I just don't know where to go from here. I don't even know if a shop will look at it being 20 years old and electrical I have a feeling they will run away.

Any kind of help is appreciated. I am super stressed that I'm going to lose all fishing season and possibly not be able to resolve what the heck....

Thank you,
Rob
 
Make sure you didn't trip your kill switch. If in doubt, disconnect it. Retry.

In your wiring harness, there is a 7.5 amp fuse. Find it and check it. See attached.

Completely disconnect the battery for at least an hour, this MAY reset the ECU. Not sure, but worth a try.
 

Attachments

  • Electrical Diagram Honda Digital Gauges Dual engines.pdf
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chawk_man said:
Make sure you didn't trip your kill switch. If in doubt, disconnect it. Retry.

In your wiring harness, there is a 7.5 amp fuse. Find it and check it. See attached.

Completely disconnect the battery for at least an hour, this MAY reset the ECU. Not sure, but worth a try.
Click to expand...
I've got a very generic two wire kill switch. It is disconnected.

Any idea where in the wiring harness that fuse would be? I checked the fuses under the cover on the motor.

I will try the battery idea.
 
That fuse location is dependent on the wiring harness you have. It will likely be close to where the harness starts branching to your gauges behind the console.

Double check the ground wire to your new switch. Run a wire from battery negative. Measure the resistance between the end of that wire and the negative terminal on your switch. There should be near zero resistance.
 
chawk_man said:
That fuse location is dependent on the wiring harness you have. It will likely be close to where the harness starts branching to your gauges behind the console.

Double check the ground wire to your new switch. Run a wire from battery negative. Measure the resistance between the end of that wire and the negative terminal on your switch. There should be near zero resistance.
Click to expand...
I will dig into it tonight. I appreciate it. You help a lot of people. If I end up at a shop do you know anyone in the Seattle area that would look at it?
 
chawk_man said:
That fuse location is dependent on the wiring harness you have. It will likely be close to where the harness starts branching to your gauges behind the console.

Double check the ground wire to your new switch. Run a wire from battery negative. Measure the resistance between the end of that wire and the negative terminal on your switch. There should be near zero resistance.
Click to expand...
That's interesting that you mention checking that ground. In trying to fix I've had a couple things that would indicate bad ground to me. When the ignition is off sometimes the oil/battery indicator lights stay on juuuuuuust barely. Also when I turn the key on there is a noticeable dimming of the warning lights. That doesn't seem right to me....it's as if the batteries are low but they are not. Something seems to have a load on the ignition when it is turned to on.
 
Hi,
I think your observations on the lamps dimming and idea that it could be a ground issue is certainly valid.

If all else fails, before taking it to someone, you might be money ahead to disconnect and clean the main ground junction under the hood. I would do the same for the main battery power connection at the starter solenoid as well as cable connections at the battery and 1-2-both switch if applicable.

Good luck.
 
jgmo said:
Hi,
I think your observations on the lamps dimming and idea that it could be a ground issue is certainly valid.

If all else fails, before taking it to someone, you might be money ahead to disconnect and clean the main ground junction under the hood. I would do the same for the main battery power connection at the starter solenoid as well as cable connections at the battery and 1-2-both switch if applicable.

Good luck.
Click to expand...
Ok... Really dumb question. I looked under the hood and couldn't find a ground post or wire. Do you know where it's located on an early 225.

This deals makes me so frustrated because I know this motor is a good running motor...grrrr.
 
Not a dumb question at all.
I have never worked on a 225 but the main ground junction for pretty much anything will be found where the negative battery cable end is located. There is usually a number of important ground wire eyelets stacked against it and, it is probably a bit difficult to access.

But well worth the trouble to ensure though that all those grounds are clean and tight.
It's just basic 12 volt electrical practice.

Chawk_man man gave you great advice and I would follow his lead before going down any paths that I bring up. He knows a great deal about your outboard.
 
On many occasions when you have a bad wire connection, it will feel hot to touch, check that after trying to start or after leaving the key on for a while.
 
Good point! High resistance due to a bad connection creates heat.
That's why a thermal camera can be a big help finding trouble spots.
 
My memory is a bit foggy on this, but I think that the negative battery cable terminates at the starter. You should be able to follow it as it enters the engine compartment. Remove the clam-shell cover that all of the electric lines and fuel lines go through and follow the black wire. While doing that, make sure that the ground cable running through the big black grommet is sound and not chafed or rubbed open.

If you have a battery selector switch, bypass it. Those things can give you real headaches when that start to fail.

You may want to try a quick check by using an auto jumper cable directly from battery negative to the engine.
 
As usual, excellent advice from chawk_man. The jumper cable bypass trick is a good one.

This may be premature and possibly not your cup O tea but I want you to at least know about it if things aren't going well finding the problem.

There is an almost magical way that you can "see inside" wires, cables and pretty much any electrical connection for excessive resistance. It is easy to understand and perform using a digital multimeter if you take the time to learn the technique. It's called "Voltage Drop Testing".
Google it. There are many, many very good tutorials on the subject that don't take much time to watch. Pick a couple and, an hour later or so, you can be armed with a very powerful tool to help you diagnose electrical issues.

Good luck.
 
Well ... Progress....

I found a glass 10a fuse on the bl/y wire. The first was good but I was able to wiggle that area and determine there was a shaky connection.

I now have warning lights that look correct and no more warning buzzer. Even better progress is there is SOME for to the motor. It almost seems like it's only got spark on a couple cylinders. This ran perfect mechanically before I started dealing with a funky ignition switch. I don't think I'm dealing with two separate issues but maybe...

A couple videos of where it is now
 
As you can see in the videos... It's trying to start. IT WASN'T EVEN TRYING BEFORE. I think that was the ignition problem because now there it's at least some fire at the motor. I'm trying to retrace anything we bumped out disconnected but can't find anything.

Still hoping to get it running.
Rob
 
Well....I might have a mess here. Charged both batteries last night and tried today. Tried the ground of a battery to the motor. Turned the key... Didn't start. Turned the key off and it's stuck in the starter run position again. Had to shut the batteries off. Now, even with that negative jumper cable disconnected, it is back to the starter solenoid wire being hot regardless of the ignition position. It might be time to throw in the towel and start boat shopping...
 
I assume that the new switch was Honda OEM, correct? Sounds like some of your injectors may not be firing..Check the fuses in your fuse box again. Don't just look at them, but pull them and test for open or any restance across the spades. Also, pull each of the three plugs going into the ECM and look for corroded or recessed pins. Having said that, I suspect something is still messed up from the switch install. A side note, if I recall correctly, the injectors and plugs fire when the ground circuit is interrupted. So, still try using an auto jumper cable to ground the engine.
 
I just posted an update on my issue. It is somewhat similar https://www.marineengine.com/boat-forum/threads/im-getting-frustrated-hard-start.479438/ it is titled I'm getting frustrated. Hard Start. While trying to figure out my issues, i read somewhere on here that the main relay can cause the starter to continuously run. I think it is called the PGM-FI Relay. if you are at a point now where it only cranks when you start it, take 5 seconds and do what i did. Turn the key to run position and jump the starter with a screwdriver from the main power wire to the small spade terminal on the starter. Mine started instantly. I am lucky i had an additional starter from the other motor to test this theory once i found it would start this way. But if it does start, it does not mean there isn't an electrical issue leading to the starter. i was able to confirm mine was the starter itself. This is because the other good starter i had fixed the issue and did not have to jump the solenoid anymore. Take a second to read my post. Also, I watched your video, mine sounded just like yours trying to start.


BTW - this is my first time trying to help others. I'm not the best with these engines just yet but thought i would try to pay it forward and offer a quick 5 second check.,
 
Jake615615 said:
I just posted an update on my issue. It is somewhat similar https://www.marineengine.com/boat-forum/threads/im-getting-frustrated-hard-start.479438/ it is titled I'm getting frustrated. Hard Start. While trying to figure out my issues, i read somewhere on here that the main relay can cause the starter to continuously run. I think it is called the PGM-FI Relay. if you are at a point now where it only cranks when you start it, take 5 seconds and do what i did. Turn the key to run position and jump the starter with a screwdriver from the main power wire to the small spade terminal on the starter. Mine started instantly. I am lucky i had an additional starter from the other motor to test this theory once i found it would start this way. But if it does start, it does not mean there isn't an electrical issue leading to the starter. i was able to confirm mine was the starter itself. This is because the other good starter i had fixed the issue and did not have to jump the solenoid anymore. Take a second to read my post. Also, I watched your video, mine sounded just like yours trying to start.


BTW - this is my first time trying to help others. I'm not the best with these engines just yet but thought i would try to pay it forward and offer a quick 5 second check.,
Click to expand...
Wow...ok. Yeah. Maybe you are on to something. I definitely could see having a starter issue b/c this all started when I was returning from the lake and found my starter motor to be running when the ignition wasn't even on. You're saying jump from where the battery power connects to the starter directly to the solenoid terminal on the starter?
 
Jake615615 said:
I just posted an update on my issue. It is somewhat similar https://www.marineengine.com/boat-forum/threads/im-getting-frustrated-hard-start.479438/ it is titled I'm getting frustrated. Hard Start. While trying to figure out my issues, i read somewhere on here that the main relay can cause the starter to continuously run. I think it is called the PGM-FI Relay. if you are at a point now where it only cranks when you start it, take 5 seconds and do what i did. Turn the key to run position and jump the starter with a screwdriver from the main power wire to the small spade terminal on the starter. Mine started instantly. I am lucky i had an additional starter from the other motor to test this theory once i found it would start this way. But if it does start, it does not mean there isn't an electrical issue leading to the starter. i was able to confirm mine was the starter itself. This is because the other good starter i had fixed the issue and did not have to jump the solenoid anymore. Take a second to read my post. Also, I watched your video, mine sounded just like yours trying to start.


BTW - this is my first time trying to help others. I'm not the best with these engines just yet but thought i would try to pay it forward and offer a quick 5 second check.,
Click to expand...
Any clue why in the world it would be turning over the same and one starts it and the other doesn't? I would think that if the starter is turning over it's the same thing.
 
rsamsel said:
Wow...ok. Yeah. Maybe you are on to something. I definitely could see having a starter issue b/c this all started when I was returning from the lake and found my starter motor to be running when the ignition wasn't even on. You're saying jump from where the battery power connects to the starter directly to the solenoid terminal on the starter?
Click to expand...
I think what was happening is the small terminal that triggers the starter to spin was drawing too much power. My guess is because of this small wire drawing too much, it than in turn did not have enough power to run the ECM or give enough power to the coils to make good spark. Again, im no expert. but with two weeks of tearing into this engine, i pretty much got the grand tour of the fuel system and electrical system. I hear people asking about the two power wires that run from the battery and they should be ran separately. i think my starter was "acting" like I did not have these wires separate. My guess is they run the two wires so the ecm does not have a large voltage drop wile cranking. Mine was wired correctly, but does no good if the solenoid is drawing too much almost acting like I did not have the two separate wires.



I am thrilled to have mine starting fine. In fact I just went and tried it again. Fired right up. BTW this has been a head scratcher for weeks, just confirmed this morning it starts fine with the other starter. To answer your question, yes, removed the small white connector from the starter. It is a little 90 degree wire crimp. Left that off, turned the key to run (no need to try and start with the key), than take a screwdriver and touch the main power lug on the starter and the little metal terminal (you just unplugged the wire from) together. You may see a spark when you do this, it is normal. You should hear the engine cranking like you would if you used the key to try and start.



Good luck man! I know exactly how it feels chasing these things!
 
Jake615615 said:
I think what was happening is the small terminal that triggers the starter to spin was drawing too much power. My guess is because of this small wire drawing too much, it than in turn did not have enough power to run the ECM or give enough power to the coils to make good spark. Again, im no expert. but with two weeks of tearing into this engine, i pretty much got the grand tour of the fuel system and electrical system. I hear people asking about the two power wires that run from the battery and they should be ran separately. i think my starter was "acting" like I did not have these wires separate. My guess is they run the two wires so the ecm does not have a large voltage drop wile cranking. Mine was wired correctly, but does no good if the solenoid is drawing too much almost acting like I did not have the two separate wires.



I am thrilled to have mine starting fine. In fact I just went and tried it again. Fired right up. BTW this has been a head scratcher for weeks, just confirmed this morning it starts fine with the other starter. To answer your question, yes, removed the small white connector from the starter. It is a little 90 degree wire crimp. Left that off, turned the key to run (no need to try and start with the key), than take a screwdriver and touch the main power lug on the starter and the little metal terminal (you just unplugged the wire from) together. You may see a spark when you do this, it is normal. You should hear the engine cranking like you would if you used the key to try and start.



Good luck man! I know exactly how it feels chasing these things!
Click to expand...
Wow...yeah ok. That sounds like exactly when I had the other day in those videos. You can see it's wanting to fire but just doesn't have quite enough SOMETHING to get it to catch. None of this started with a mechanical issue so I'm continuing on the electrical path. If it's two issues combined it may never get fixed :).

It does seem to have a voltage drop when cranking. I have no idea how the motors are connected at the batteries. I bought it used and the bulk of the big wiring is buried pretty deep.

It would be cool if a shop had someway to hook the motor up more/less standalone where the boat switches and batteries and such didn't matter. That would be a nice way to rule a bunch of stuff out.

GRRR. It's making me cuss a lot.
 
You need a wiring diagram and a voltage drop test, a good auto electrician would fix this easily if you don't have the knowledge to do this.It is definitely low voltage but the problem could be anywhere between the battery and efi power supply.
 
Well.... My evening update.

Just got in from looking at the 225. Right now here is where we are:

When cranking the voltage drops to 11.4.

When you turn the key on there is a very quiet tick from a relay at the front of the motor. Turning the key off and on that quiet tick is replicated. New development... When you turn the key nothing happens.... There is a quiet tick from the motor when trying to start from the key but it does not crank. Jumping from the hot side of the starter to the solenoid turns the motor over but it does not start.

I think I found someone to look at it in three weeks so I'm still trying to figure out what is going on.

Is there a way that the relay that is ticking isn't making a good connection on the bl/y wire? Like maybe the signal from the key to tell the motor to turn on can't get through that relay?
 
Have you got a workshop manual? If not you can download the factory manual for free, just google Honda BF225 service manual and look for it. That will give you a proper troubleshooting guide. It's very difficult to talk you through it.
 
iang6766 said:
Click to expand...
Thank you. I have been referring to one. I do have some mechanical skill but I am really struggling pinning down what is going on. Without the direction as to what is going on it makes it hard to reference the manual b/c I haven't been able to decide where to focus my attention. It's chaos almost in that is seems to vary depending on the day. I have double confirmed all the connections and it simply is a mess.

Can someone comment on the use of dielectric grease? Is it possible I have caused more problems by using it on some of the connections to help longevity. I use it on my snowmobiles and it helps keep terminals watertight and clean.
 
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