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Trojanman

Trojanman

Regular Contributor
Ok so I finally replaced the old points ignition with an electronic ignition, but I would like to replace both coils due to starting to leak oil. I was thinking of an MDS Blaster 2 Coil or Pertronix Flame Thrower ?? Who's using what? and whats better? Any input would be appreciated
 
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which electronic ignition did you use?
I just did a hot spark system and they offer an epoxy filled coil,that has a stainless finish

certain ohms required by different systems is why I asked

hes running a chrysler(prestolite) points cam in this 351 ford
 

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I used to run Accell Super Stacks with my electronic ignitions. Switched back to the oem parts last year. Have not noticed any difference at all, they still start first turn of the key & I'm still running a .045 point gap.
and about $25 cheaper per
Pete.
 
greasemonkey said:
which electronic ignition did you use?
I just did a hot spark system and they offer an epoxy filled coil,that has a stainless finish

certain ohms required by different systems is why I asked

hes running a chrysler(prestolite) points cam in this 351 ford
Click to expand...

Grease, The distributor is a stock Chrysler that came with the boat, just looking for better coils to replace the stock ones. Is stock .6 ohms ?
 
If this is an electronic conversion, it's most likely a Pertronix Hall Effect kit.... yes/no?
I won't bore you with my reasons for disliking the Pertronix Hall Effect triggering! :) :) :) :)

However, if Pertronix, I'd follow Pertronix's recommendation for resisted or non-resisted voltage, and would select an ignition coil based on that. I'm sure that they offer a recommendation.

With our cruiser type engines, High Output is not completely necessary, although certainly not a bad thing!
We're turning relatively low rpm with these engines.
Again... if Pertronix, see what their recommendation is re; High Output ignition coils.

The secondary voltage will also influence spark plug gap to a certain degree.
IOW.... if standard, I'd use a rather conversative gap.
If High Output, try increasing the gap some.


Side note:
Remeber that there may be 2 voltages required;
  • Triggering unit voltage
  • Actual ignition coil voltage

All of this should be covered in their literature.


.
 
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a factory old school Mercruiser or VP coil would be the best quality. Just get the correct one (resistor vs. non resistor)
If your plugs are gapped right, your voltage at the plugs is probably 4000 to 8000 volts.

The benefit of these so called "higher voltage" coils is where you would want to overgap and push the voltage up. Not necessary on a stock boat engine. The coil doesn't determine the voltage, the gap and conditions in the cylinder do.

As silly as it is, I like the idea of a shiny chrome or stainless one if OEM not avail.
 
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Hey Rick, It's not a Pertronix conversion, its just a original Chrysler distributor. Not sure if I sould keep the voltage reg. in place or just bypass it, a friend has a High performance coil with the voltage reg. still in place.

hystat, thanks for your response. I was thinking of either a MSD Blaster2 or a Flamethrower by Pertronix as a good replacement, any experience with these?? and if I do go with a HP coil are you saying I should overgap the plugs ?
 
I was asking which Elec. Ignition you decided to go with...what did you put under the cap to make it elect. ign.?
The hot spark system(coil) doesnt use the ballast ...pretty impressed with it so far...for 131.00 for a module and shiny 45,000 volt coil shipped
but if your POINTS cam is worn badly and the pickup has some play it may give you fits,so I I rebuilt the distrubutor,gave the springs a couple light stretches and

We took the old original prestolite elec. module AND reluctor,put my Chrysler points cam from my 71 in his prestolite dist.(same dist. body)
If you didnt have a look at the weights and springs in there when you put the module on it would be wise and worth it
 
hystat said:
The coil doesn't determine the voltage, the gap and conditions in the cylinder do.
Click to expand...
Hystat, forgive me if I've misunderstood you.
The ignition coil does indeed determine secondary output voltage via the ratio between the primary and secondary windings. An ignition coil is nothing more than an intermittent AC transformer.
12 vdc on the primary side, via a typical ratio of 100:1, may = 24,000 volts on the secondary side.

If you meant that spark plug gap and cylinder pressure determines the "required voltage", then we are in agreement! :D


Trojanman said:
Hey Rick, It's not a Pertronix conversion, its just a original Chrysler distributor. Not sure if I sould keep the voltage reg. in place or just bypass it, a friend has a High performance coil with the voltage reg. still in place.
Click to expand...
Ah..... Chrysler! Chrysler pioneered VR technology in the 70's.
VR = Variable Reluctor. This is tried and proven to be good stuff, IMO.
Mallory's YLM uses VR, and is why I like the YLM series.

I'm not following you on the " voltage reg. still in place" comment. Did you mean "ballast resistor"?

Again.... keep in mind that the VR unit and the coil may each require a different voltage supply.


This may be a good read for some of us.


.
 
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Grease, I didn't make it electronic I replaced the whole distributor with a spare electronic distributor that came with the boat, I believe it's just a stock Chrysler distributor.

Rick, "my bad" I meant to say ballist resistor. Not enough coffee today.
 
RicardoMarine said:
Hystat, forgive me if I've misunderstood you.
The ignition coil does indeed determine secondary output voltage via the ratio between the primary and secondary windings. An ignition coil is nothing more than an intermittent AC transformer.
12 vdc on the primary side, via a typical ratio of 100:1, may = 24,000 volts on the secondary side. .
Click to expand...
12V through a 100:1 turns ratio transformer = 1200V, and that is a pretty typical coil ratio, so how's it going to get to tens of thousands you might ask....
coil field collapse
The collapse of a magnetic field within a coil of wire is a total game changer. The secondary of the coil is an inductive load. When you open the switch (points or other trigger device) the secondary of the coil "dumps", and the secondary voltage will rise to whatever voltage it needs to to jump the gap. up to the limits of the coil... thus the need for better coils when the gap gets widened, so the arcing doesn't happen between turns in the coil can. Better "high voltage" coils, really just have better insulation on the turns in the can.

If you crimp all the spark plugs shut, the voltage will be zero (dead short), widen the gap and the potential increases.

I still have one of the old Sun engine analyzers from the 70's. You can run a scope and it'll show you voltages on all 8 cylinders. You narrow the gap, the voltages drop. Widen the gap, the voltages go up. Change the fuel mixture, spark plug voltages change.

Run her lean, the voltages go up. Rich and V drops.

As far as widening gap and running a hotter coil on a stock marine engine - no. There is no reason to do that- no performance gain.
 
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hystat said:
12V through a 100:1 turns ratio transformer = 1200V, and that is a pretty typical coil ratio, so how's it going to get to tens of thousands you might ask....
coil field collapse
The collapse of a magnetic field within a coil of wire is a total game changer. The secondary of the coil is an inductive load. When you open the switch (points or other trigger device) the secondary of the coil "dumps", and the secondary voltage will rise to whatever voltage it needs to to jump the gap. up to the limits of the coil... thus the need for better coils when the gap gets widened, so the arcing doesn't happen between turns in the coil can. Better "high voltage" coils, really just have better insulation on the turns in the can.

If you crimp all the spark plugs shut, the voltage will be zero (dead short), widen the gap and the potential increases.

I still have one of the old Sun engine analyzers from the 70's. You can run a scope and it'll show you voltages on all 8 cylinders. You narrow the gap, the voltages drop. Widen the gap, the voltages go up. Change the fuel mixture, spark plug voltages change.

Run her lean, the voltages go up. Rich and V drops.

As far as widening gap and running a hotter coil on a stock marine engine - no. There is no reason to do that- no performance gain.
Click to expand...

What can you tell us about Chrysler's timing curve..... ;P

Jack
 
My buddy John installed two high performance, 45,000 volt coils with his stock Prestolite distributor. He retained the ballast resistor (actually, a new replacment unit) to protect the coil(s) if he left the ignition switch(es) on by accident. So far--several years now--it has worked excellent.

Jeff
 
Move a little further North....it was -20 to -30 here last week, windy , miserable...went and sat in the boat ,had a beer & made engine noises

Pete
 
Hi
I have used the Procomp distributor from Procompelectronics.com number 8027. Ball bearing shaft, integral module to drive a HD coil, adjustable mechanical timing, no vacuum advance. I use either their matching coil or the Jacobs super coil. Both give a 3-4" spark to ground. Makes you pee your pants if you get hit by it!
This gives one looooong duration hot spark, which is what a heavily loaded engine needs. around $85. I have installed about 2 dozen of them in marine and never changed a module yet. The original came with a hall effect and lately have been VR, magnetic reluctor.
Set the mechanical advance to 24 degrees MAX. Set initial to 4 to 6 degrees MAX. DO NOT ALLOW TO GO OVER 30 DEGREES, 28 PREFERRED TOTAL WHEN USING 87 PUMP ETHANOL.
If your area is a true 10% Ethanol, and most are not (have tested as high as 44% in Florida pumps this year) then you can take the distributor apart remove the heavy spring and put in a second lighter spring. If you look at an OEM Chrysler marine distributor the springs are not heavy and light but both light. Only cars run 1 light and 1 heavy.
Bring the max timing in at 2600 and you will have the best you can get with 87 Ethanol. I have water tested almost every configuration, this works well with Carb engines. EFI can use anti knock and O2 sensors to respond to detonation in less than 1ms. But Carbs cannot.
I spent 3 hiours this morning setting up another one and getting it on the engine. What a difference between it and the OEM electronic.
If you look at the Show your ride page you can see the engines with these distributors. I like the fact you can use the HEI tower plug wires as well.

I am working on a simple, plug and play MPI kit for the 440 engines right now. This is due to the never ending carb and fuel system problems with Ethanol. The ECM will come with custom 440 marine program in it with the ability to custom tune with a laptop for other than average stock engines.

That will be an entirely different thread after we test it.
Until then, we have found that these specs work the best with pump Ethanol.

Hope it helps.
Dan
 
Sorry but forgot.

I have put the OEM Chrysler distributors on a distributor machine and run them up 100 RPM at a time and created the OEM curves. These apply to Gasoline engines, which we no longer have. Also, they varied so much, even pairs of left and right were way different. End result. many different curves that mean nothing in the Ethanol world. Using one of the OEM curves will cause detonation. Since human ears can only hear this after it has become so bad it is driving the pistons back words there is usually some form of it happening if timing goes over 28 degrees.
If you take one of those little magic ear microphones they sell for people that are hard of hearing. Take it apart and remove the sound sensor. Put 25 ft of light speaker wire onto the sensor and epoxy the sensor to an alligator clip. Now clip it to the engine near the back of the head.
Go for a ride using the ear phones plugged into the unit. You will be amazed at how much "Popcorn" you hear with it but not without it. That popcorn is detonation. Costs about 25-30 bucks to make one up.
Engines are thousands. Using Gasoline curved distributors on Ethanol engines just does not work. For 30 bucks prove it to yourself.
I also have a little sensor that I plug into an amplifier then a digital meter. It gives a varying voltage upon sensing detonation. I use it to set up engines under load to avoid detonation.
last year in Florida you had to use 108 Octane booster in every tank or the detonation was wild.

More stuff to worry about.

Keep the sunscreen out of you bellybutton

Dan
 
Dan...... my comments and questions and quoting you for the sake of conversation only:


You have referred to the OEM curve. I assume that you're using an OEM Marine curve, and that you are not comparing Automotive curves to that of Marine.
Auto/Marine..... Apples/Artichokes!


Several of us have tried to find an OEM Chrysler Marine Ignition curves for some time now, and we keep coming up short!
We can find BASE advance all day long.

Can you post this Marine curve graph for the Chrysler guys?


Set initial to 4 to 6 degrees MAX. DO NOT ALLOW TO GO OVER 30 DEGREES, 28 PREFERRED TOTAL WHEN USING 87 PUMP ETHANOL.
Click to expand...
Bring the max timing in at 2600 and you will have the best you can get with 87 Ethanol.
Click to expand...
Again Dan..... conversation only.
For me..... a TA number is rather meaningless without an associated RPM.


I'm not into the Chrysler Marine engines, but I am into the GM SBC Marine engines.
That said...... both SBC and the 318/360 family offer some similarities regarding cylinder angles, cylinder head chamber design, etc. etc.

For a GM SBC Marine Engine, Ignition Advance that is full in @ 2,600 rpm could be asking for trouble in the form of "detonation".
Which further leads me to my question re; a Chrysler Marine Ignition curve graph.
No argument, Dan..... I'm just curious as to see an actual Chrysler Marine Ignition curve.


As you know, the goal is LPCP. Many will suggest that LPCP be at/near 12* to 14* ATDC.
Spark lead and eventual combustion influence LPCP. I often refer to this as though the Ignition Event has the "last word" at placing LPCP correctly.


You also referred to using the OEM curves with today's Ethanol laden gasoline could cause detonation.
I fully agree, but again I'd have to ask, what OEM curves?



Keep the sunscreen out of you bellybutton
Click to expand...
Dan, I'll take your word on that one. :D
Here in Oregon we don't have enough sunshine to worry about it much!


.
 
Morning.
I will try to dig up all the old curves I did using OEM MARINE distributors, both left and right. Found data useless anyway as there were never 2 the same. This is common with old mechanical distributors and mass production parts. Each distributor was dismantled, serviced before testing. I could always do the tests again but useless as we no longer have gasoline with those characteristics.

You cannot compare a Chev to a big block Chrysler. The 440 magnum actually had its own advance curve with max timing at 2400 rpm, but less total timing, again, gasoline not Ethanol. The plugs are important. I use Champion 825, which is equivalent to j4y. The RJ10Y is no longer made and the RJ12Yc is just too hot for Ethanol.

Just though the tons of hours we put into finding what works on this crappy fuel would be useful. Each engine has it own characteristics. Ask anyone running a dyno.
These specs work on a mostly stock 440 using 87 Ethanol in a Chrysler 440. I cannot speak to any other engines needs. I have about 3700 hours on an engine with these specs.
Hope it helps.
Dan
 
Rick
if you email me at
[email protected]
I will send you some awesome reading on the history of engine fuel for the last 20 years. Most do not know there are 15 types of fuel used in the US and that each state has there own blends. Some are Oxygenated and some are not. If Oxygenated it leans the A/F mixture around 3.5% which will cause detonation. Since these fuels are made for cars now that are all injected and adjust themselves it not a problem. On Carb engines its major. Set and engine up in Michigan to run perfect, then take that vessel to Florida, Oxygen, and it will run so lean it will knock and not be able to get on a plane. The answer is to rich up the carb and cut back the timing. The real answer for those that move around is injection. If I cross lake Erie and fuel up its a problem.
They are great articles. I also have a chart somewhere showing the 15 different fuels and states that use them. I am not sure how to post these files. If you know you can post them

Got to go, ice is melting and diluting my Rum.
Dan
 
Thank you. I may take you up on your offer.

Meanwhile, I'd still like see the Chrysler 318/360 and/or 440 Marine OEM ignition curves in graph form.
Can you post these for us?


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