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Engineering and Installation of new fuel system

chuckhanson

chuckhanson

Regular Contributor
"I would like to install a new

"I would like to install a new gasoline delivery system on my 50' Gibson houseboat before spring. I thought some of you might have some suggestions and possibly share some photos and/or schematics of your system. My objective is to get the system functional, safe, in compliance with Coast Guard regulations and looking reasonably good.

My engines are 454 CID with Roschester carbs. I also have a 7.5 KW Kohler Generator that will need to be integrated into the system. I have two 125 gallon gasoline tanks. I envision electric fuel pumps, water seperators, and filters. I am interested in being able to prime my carbs with an safety override switch.

Thanks for your suggestions.

Chuck Hanson"
 
"Priming system: I assume you

"Priming system: I assume you have mechanical pumps. If so, the below photo shows how I (finally!) set up a priming system for my engines. A small electric pump sends fuel to both carbs via a check valve (so no backfeeding takes place).

Separator/ filter BEFORE the fuel pump: A good brand with an easy dumping feature to drain the water out. Coarse filtration of 25 to 30 microns--no less.

Fine filter: Locate AFTER the fuel pump. Use a 10 micron filter and make it easy to change.

Gen-Set: You really need a third fuel tap, if possible. If not, Tee off one of the other lines and use a check valve to prevent backflow from the Gen-Set (that would cause destructive aeration).

Jeff

375095.jpg
"
 
"Thanks Jeff. I have electric

"Thanks Jeff. I have electric fuel pumps in now. They are low pressure and low flow. They only support about 2500 RPM under load. Thus I need a recommendation on pump and filter brands.

Thanks again, I value your advice.

Chuck Hanson"
 
"Well, you're halfway ther

"Well, you're halfway there already, A couple of larger capacity marine pumps ($$$$$$$$$$$$$) and away you go!

I hope Santa left some money in your stocking!

Jeff"
 
"Engineered you ask; I'd

"Engineered you ask; I'd design a system that uses more tubing and less hose. Suprisingly, ABYC doesn't like stainless tubing, only monel and copper. I'd go monel. If you can, run it "uphill" so you don't need an anti-siphon. That possibility will depend on the relative height of the engine vs tank. I'd use A1 hose between the tank and fixed tubing, and between engine and fixed filter. I'd NOT use barb fittings, but wrenchable, inverted flare fittings permanently applied to the hose. I'd avoid Al fittings altogether, except for the tank itself. I'd get the genset its own diptube. I'd use a non-variable resistor type level sensor in both tanks (Isspro or similar). Unless the genset is a significant fuel consumer, I'd seriously consider NOT doing fuel crossover valves, due to their chance of leaks, operator error, etc."
 
"Hello Chuck...same type vesse

"Hello Chuck...same type vessel only smaller and I carry 350CIDs. I have the 100 gal aluminum tanks on outside of each engine.

At the stern, each tank is fitted with a shutoff valve then A1 hose that goes to the water separator filter and from there, metal line to the carb filter and then carb. Both tanks are connected across the stern transom with a simple cross feed valve. The cross feed line is metal.

Between the engines I have a 7.5 Westerbeke genset and a fuel line runs from the front of each fuel tank to a "T".I can select which tank I want to feed the genset with. After the "T" is another fuel filter and the line to the carb of the genset which has another another filter.

I don't have any retrofit electric fuel pumps or any other paraphanalia onboard. The boat fuel setup is pretty much what came out of the factory and I have never had a fuel problem.

I am not familiar with the bigger engines and was surprised to read that your E/pumps only support 2500RPM under load...was that a retro fit or "out of the factory"?"
 
Originally the engines had mec

Originally the engines had mechanical pumps. The diaphrams broke one at a time in each pump and filled the engines with gasoline. What a mess that was. I installed two small inline electric pumps. I pulled the rod that operates the mechanical pumps and installed a blank in the place of the pump. The boat was only about 5 years old when the mechanicals went out. It must have been a bad batch of pumps.

Thanks for the information.

Chuck Hanson
 
".." It must have been a b

".." It must have been a bad batch of pumps. "

Or some really bad gas! I hope you wired an oil pressure switch in series with those pumps? Knowing you, I'll bet money you did.

Jeff"
 
"Chuck, Jeff is correct! You m

"Chuck, Jeff is correct! You must have the low oil pressure N/O switches in the loop to each individual electric fuel pump.
I think that a range that keeps them N/O until 6 or so PSI would do.
This is a USCG requirement!

What is not a requirement is the "start by-pass", but it is necessary in order to operate the fuel pumps while there is no oil pressure during cranking.

Then if you wish, a momentary helm switch can be used for this priming aspect of it.... of which is a great idea.... but it MUST have "momentary" capability ONLY or you don't meet the USCG regs.
This will also eliminate a need for the start by-pass circuit so long as a unfamiliar operator would know about it.

Chuck, for your generator fuel supply, you may come from one of the main fuel filters that would offer twin inlets/outlets, as many do! The main engines will likely be OFF when the gen would be running, so there is no issue here!
If back-flow is a concern, install a marine fuel system anti-siphon valve at the filter base where it leads to the generator fuel supply.

As for a filter brand, I can't say enough good about the In Board system Parker/RACOR fuel filters..... Good stuff!
Sierra now offers the same system under the Sierra name.... and these can be purchased as a retro fit to your existing filter bases.
These are a "True" h2o separating system unlike the paper absorption of the standard types.
."
 
"Thanks for the continued sugg

"Thanks for the continued suggestions. I still need a suggestion based on experience for a brand and model of electric pump. I have a pressure gage in the fuel line at the carb. Presently I run about 4 psi.

Thanks,

Chuck Hanson"
 
"If you are interested you can

"If you are interested you can find the Code of Federal Regulations pertaining to Fuel Systems for boats at:

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=aa8891a16b4b27780b472b7 00a908d79&rgn=div6&view=text&node=33:2.0.1.8.45.10&idno=33

They are Title 33 Chapter 1 Subchapter S Part 183 Subpart J 183.501 - 183.590.

As I design the new system for the boat, I will assure that the design is in compliance with the regulations. Before putting the design to bed, there may be a need for researching USEPA regulations also. I read today that the gasoline hose specification requirement for hose from pump to carb is A-1 15. It seems to deal with the amount of gasoline that will pass through the wall of the hose. I will let you know if I find that requirement.

Chuck Hanson"
 
Walbro makes a really nice mar

Walbro makes a really nice marine pump. Pumps all the fuel you'd never want to pay for!

Jeff
 
"[b]"I read today that the

""I read today that the gasoline hose specification requirement for hose from pump to carb is A-1 15."

Jeff, I'd not normally say anything re; this, but your little automotive in-line filter installation may be questionable!
BTW, those filters become restrictive very quickly! They simply do not offer any square area of filtration surface that is of much benefit, IMO!
If you have a good main filter, they are basically unnecessary and add an additional short hose that may add to points of failure...... again, IMOO here."
 
"Maybe consider that a more si

"Maybe consider that a more simple and safe method for bringing fuel to a "would-be dry" carburetor (prior to starting) will be a "momentary" helm switch that would excite the electric fuel pump circuit.
IOW's, providing the same function as does the "start by-pass" circuit, but without the engine cranking!
It's a Win-Win for our starter motors and batteries also!
."
 
".."I'd not normally s

".."I'd not normally say anything re; this, but your little automotive in-line filter installation may be questionable.."

You mean legal, or sensible?

..."BTW, those filters become restrictive very quickly! They simply do not offer any square area of filtration surface that is of much benefit."

Not the ones I use. They are about 2 inch dia by 3 inches long. Lots of filtration area there. Besides, the upstream strainer/ separator is responsible for the larger chunks.

Jeff"
 
"Jeff , again, I don't wan

"Jeff , again, I don't want my head in where it may not be welcome.... I just couldn't help but to notice the in-line filter.
As far as I know, there is no specific regulation against them if the proper fuel line and clamping is used.

As for catching "chunks"........ if we have "chunks" passing through a main filter, then I believe we may have other issues.
If you question your main filter, I'd recommend installing a Parker/RACOR filter. IMO, it is superior and with actual water separating ability."
 
"Jeff is showing a metal filte

"Jeff is showing a metal filter with A1 hose, I believe that is per US CFR and ABYC specs (which are more severe than USCG). Jeff is also in line with the fine filter in the pressure side as well. Saying that, I do what ricardo says. I'm taking a risk that my pump won't implode with diagram bits that will clog the carb. If/when my pumps fail, that engine is down anyway, with or without the little filter. Since my engine is carbed, I feel I don't need 2 micron, or even 10 micron filtration. I do like the Racors with the sump drain. Wouldn't do it any other way. If I'm going to put something between the pump and the carb, it's going to be a fuel pressure gauge."
 
"Results of a little more rese

"Results of a little more research into A1-15. This hose is designed to leak through the wall and evaporate at a rate of 15 grams/square meter/day. This is a USEPA driven requirement which may be found at:

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2008/pdf/E8-21093.pdf

The requirement is for engines manufactured after January 1,2009. There is a provision that allows manufacturers to use up their current inventory of fuel hose.

Since my engine was manufactured in 1984 the A1-15 specification does not apply. The Coast Guard requirement for A1 does apply. This is a regulation driven by the protection of the enviroment not boating safety.

Chuck Hanson"
 
"Chuck, I have no dog in any f

"Chuck, I have no dog in any fight here...... I'm just throwing this into the mix.

I think that the hose in question, if originally installed during a time when it met the criteria, is fine.
I think if we were to re-install this hose during a time after it's approved usage has expired, we may be in violation of said rules!
IF there were to be an incident and IF it were to be proven, you may be up stream with a short paddle.
It is worth the risk?

I suppose that if you were going to use it, you do so in a way that it appears as though it's been there all along.


That being said...... you're only a few minor boat dollars away from purchasing the currently approved hose.

."
 
You want to be sure to use an

You want to be sure to use an alcohol resistant hose. I saw a non-alcohol hose disintegrate in a few years on my kit car.

Jeff
 
"Chuck:

stay focused on the

"Chuck:

stay focused on the 33CFR areas...that's where any marine insurance investigator will concentrate. FWIW, you only have to comply with the 'current rules when built'; in practice, if a hose type is superceded, it will be really difficult to buy the 'older' hose.

As far as the 'evaporative emissions' the EPA is concerned about, my opinion is they are urinating with the breeze in their faces. That area is a whole lot uglier to fix on a boat than on cars as they did in the 70's and 80's. Like most other federal rules, implementation is lagging and then intermittent at best. There isn't any money to enforce any retrofit so even the Feds won't do it. I'd also bet this will be done as MFG certified with random samples going to independent testing events."
 
"Thanks to all who are contrib

"Thanks to all who are contributing to this design. I really appreciate your input. I am preparing an outline with all the information provided and coming up with a design document. Since you have been a part of its development, I plan to share it on this site. Hopefully the work product will be "an approach" based on a ton of experience to establishing a fuel system for older boats that is compliant with the current regulations, which hopefully equates to improved safety performance.

If you would like to view and comment on the drafts, I would be happy to accomodate you. Send me an email and I will send it to you.

Chuck Hanson
[email protected]"
 
i never gave it much thought b

i never gave it much thought but i'm running holley fuel regulaters in line just before the carbs on my 85 silveton with 270 crusaders. do they need to be approved? if so who makes coast gaurd approved regulators?
 
hey jeff i see your running th

hey jeff i see your running that flexible hose between the filter and carb. does that need to be double clamped to be compliant? what are those filter numbers and what level of filtration do they have?
 
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