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Buyer/Seller Purchase/Sales moral questions

RicardoMarine

RicardoMarine

Gold Medal Contributor
I think that this is my first time at starting a new thread, and since ME.com apparently does not have a General Section, Dock Talk or Chit Chat section, I'm not sure which section would best serve this thread..... so here it is.
OK, this is rather delicate... so bare with me.


I'm debating as to how involved I want to be in helping a boat purchaser with a seller issue.
Not as a liaison between parties....., but in posting this in hopes of comments.

The buyer purchased a boat from an alleged friend and fellow yacht club member.
Both parties are respected members of the Yacht Club... the seller being a more long time member.

Now... the buyer did what we all warn against.... they did not have the boat surveyed, and placed their trust in the seller.
Caveat Emptor..... strike one, and they know this.

Now, the seller, who was a friend and yacht club member, assured them that everything he described was up to snuff.
The seller even suggested that a recent $8k had been spent on drive maintenance and/or repairs.
They did a sea trial that was not quite as successful as it may have been....., but again the seller assure them that all was OK.

The purchase took place.

The buyer then discovered that extensive repairs were in order.
The drive suspension fork was broken, and the drive was literally just hanging there.
Repairs to the boat were indeed extensive.... including a compete transom shield, Intermediate housing and DP out drive replacement (complete transmission and lower gears/bearings), and several other items that I won't go into.
Total cost was approx $7k +.
This was an unexpected cost to the buyer..... but they moved forward with the repairs in order to have a working boat.

The related damage and repair costs "in detail" have been mentioned to the seller.

Fast forward to today, and to a trailer balance of $xxxx that is still owed.
Buyer has possession of the trailer... but not of the title.


Should the buyer just eat it... and pay the trailer balance and receive the title?
(they're sortta stuck here as they don't have a choice)

Should the seller step up to the plate with some sort of offering.... perhaps the trailer title at no cost?
(balance on trailer is substantially less than the total cost of repairs... almost 1/3 of the repair costs.)

The buyer knows that from a legal standpoint, they hold no cards..... Caveat Emptor.
From a moral standpoint...... I'd like to know what some of you have to say about this.
IOW, what would you expect.... and/or what would you do if in a similar situation as either the buyer or the seller?

Again.... Caveat Emptor is fully understood by the buyer... and I'm sure by the seller as well.


You'll have to take what limited information I have given...... I can't offer (or don't feel comfortable in offering) anymore at this time.
Based on this limited info being truthful and accurate, I'd appreciate your thoughts.


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Did the buyer pay market value, or was it a "bargain"<BR>Did the seller persuade the buyer that a survey was not neccessary <BR>Obviously we dont have all the details, but, was the seller dishonest in his claim that he'd had $8 of work done to the boat? or had he paid someone $8 for work that wasnt carried out?<BR>In other words if the seller HAD paid $8 for work that they thought was carried out then they'd be right in thinking that the boat was all good<BR>But, if the seller knew no work had been done ie, hasnt got receipts etc, then he is in the wrong irrespective of the legallities of it<BR>There are so many variables that could alter my way of thinking about this situation, but I think maybe the yacht club could get involved<BR>If I was the buyer I dont think I would be happy, but then a survey SHOULD have been carried out<BR>What were the problems on the sea trial? rattly outdrives? noisy engines? alarm bells should have sounded(the ones in your head)<BR>Not a nice situation to be in Rick, specially if you know them both
 
welshswampy , those are good and fair questions...... thanks for responding. :)
Not many takers on this thread topic.

I'll take your comments one at a time here:

No and yes to the first two questions.
The buyer, IMO, paid over fair market value given the boat's actual mechanical condition.
The boat itself is beautiful! In many respects, it's average or above.... more so above!
It's a single engine SDN F/B boat, and the engine appears to be good.
Many of us would kill for the trailer alone! It's an excellent heavy duty galvanized triple axle that looks very un-used.
(I considered swapping while the new owners weren't looking)

Yes, correct... the seller more or less assured buyer that a survey was not necessary. Like said earlier, they trusted the seller, and now know that this was strike one!

Correct... you don't have all of the details, but I assure you that you have what's necessary and relevant.
It would serve no one if I had unfairly altered this.

As for seller being; "dishonest in his claim that he'd had $8 of work done to the boat"... I believe so, but my source for this is the buyer.
And yes.... had $8k worth of drive work honestly been done, these later repairs most likely would not have been needed.
With my assessment and eventual repairs, these were in fact necessary and had NOT been recently serviced, repaired or replaced.
But those are very fair questions!
(later in this thread I may post photos of the drive components that were said to be good, but had to be replaced)

I'm unable to comment on the $8k worth of receipts, etc. Probably a moot point at this time, but I'll ask next time we speak.

The seller has not done anything illegal per 'se ....., but certainly not morally sound!
But again, this IMOO and is based on my assessment and based on what I ended up replacing.

Good point re; " variables that could alter your way of thinking".
This is where your trust of ME comes into play. I have to remain factual and neutral as much as possible.

The Yacht Club will not be asked to get involved.
The buyers are too polite and morally sound to pull that card from the bottom of the deck.
While I'm making efforts to keep this fairly anonymous, my own ego wants all of those Yacht Club members to see the eventual thread with all details and photos.... including the seller's name!
(that was meant to be sarcastically humorous! :rolleyes: )

Yes.... buyer is not happy, but assumes full responsibility for the repercussions of the No Survey!
As said... and from my observations, they are polite and morally sound people.... much more so than average!

Yes, not a very good situation to find yourself in.
And just for clarity, I did not know the buyer prior to any of this. They found me.
They appear to be people that I could easily become friends with..... and that involves integrity, honesty, etc..... and they seem to meet that criteria. :)

Again, it's the moral portion I'm after in this thread...., not the legality, as I don't think that there is a legal side this.
There is no pending small claims case, nor will there be.
However, the seller does wish to have one final meeting with the seller and resolve the trailer title issue........ and your thoughts may help them with clarity.

Nor are there any attempts at this time to publicly disgrace the seller.
Sellers like this no doubt have a history of doing the same in other avenues of life.... and have no doubt disgraced themselves before.

Thanks for posting.

.
 
+1 re comment about seller Rick. I suspect they knew the condition of the hardware unless the people doing the work or lack thereof were negligent in reporting. Perhaps a discussion with the technician would clear some things up. It sounds like this is another case of someone buying with thier heart and not their head. Also agree that there are too many unknowns here and you're only hearing one side. The main point I want to emphasize though is that it is no longer as simple as Caveat Emptor. Too many buyers still think that way and so just let things slip by, and too many sellers still rely on this as a way out of a money pit and still get a good return. The reality is that more and more, the courts are leaning towards the seller being diligent in representing the item being sold and that it is incumbent upon them to disclose deficiencies. So as mentioned above, if the seller knew there were outstanding repairs needed, especially some that would correct safety deficiencies, the courts wouldn't look too favourably on them. I say talk to the people that did the repairs and take it from there. If after they find out that the seller knew about the problems, and I suspect they did, confront the seller, be firm, and tell them exactly what you expect from them to remedy the situation or else, but be prepared to take it to the next level if needed. Or do nothing, take it as a lesson learned, and move on. The moving on part will not be easy but will come eventually after some great outings on the water.
 
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WoodieMan said:
......................... The main point I want to emphasize though is that it is no longer as simple as Caveat Emptor. Too many buyers still think that way and so just let things slip by, and too many sellers still rely on this as a way out of a money pit and still get a good return. The reality is that more and more, the courts are leaning towards the seller being diligent in representing the item being sold and that it is incumbent upon them to disclose deficiencies. So as mentioned above, if the seller knew there were outstanding repairs needed, especially some that would correct safety deficiencies, the courts wouldn't look too favourably on them. I say talk to the people that did the repairs and take it from there. If after they find out that the seller knew about the problems, and I suspect they did, confront the seller, be firm, and tell them exactly what you expect from them to remedy the situation or else, but be prepared to take it to the next level if needed. Or do nothing, take it as a lesson learned, and move on.............
Click to expand...
Woodie, thank you also.
Good point about talking to the alleged shop who did the repairs. I may mention that to the buyers.
But again, there is no plan for any arbitration or small claims, etc.

Re; the unknowns..... I realize that I've been privy to one side only, and I too questioned all of this before forming an opinion.... and I'm still trying to remain open minded.
As I developed a trust in the buyers and how they were presenting this to me (very fairly, I must add), it became fairly clear.
But again, I'm privy to one side only!

I'm confident that there's not a shop in the country that would attest to any involvement regarding recent work having been done this stern drive system.
(you will be quite surprised when/if I post photos of the components that I removed)
It's pretty unbelievable that these could be represented as being recently serviced and/or in good working condition.:mad:
My 23 years or so Volvo Penta experience pretty much confirms this for me, as I stepped gently off the Turn-up truck..... I did not fall off! :)

Re; your above quote..... well said.
The buyers have emotionally moved on re; the repair costs.
However, the trailer title is still up in the air.
The buyers plan to have a meeting with the seller, and I believe that they would benefit from a little neutral feedback from others... perhaps here.

Thanks again, Rick

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Rick,

I think the lesson in this thread, is that a good survey is worth it's weight in slip rent. Even so, the best surveyors will admit they can't see through solid objects, or predict the future.

In my humble opinion, if the sales agreement, or bill of sale made mention of; "as is, where is", the ball falls on the buyers side of the fence. If the seller presented the boat as flawless, or even misrepresented work being performed which had not, that's another issue. If the buyer presumed the boat to be without issues, because her owner is one of the who's-who's in the yacht club's social circle, thinking it to be rude to investigate the boat further, or too sheepish to ask, then that bounces back to the buyer again. As far as the trailer, well...we know too little about that part of the "deal".


Rick, your concern shows you to be an honest fellow, and a man of morals.
 
Kim, thanks, but I don't think that the one bad apple ruins the whole club, per 'se.
I'd be willing to bet that the club members would be very disappointed in this member if they knew all of the details.

Bob, the buyers are very clear on that, but thanks for your words.


I'm not one who would simply side with a party that I am doing work for on that merit alone.
I'm also not one to sugar coat anything on one side, nor to exaggerate on the other.
If I get permission to post photos, you'll see just what I removed. In fact, all of it is still in my possession.
Transom shield w/ broken set pin ears and severe corrosion, broken suspension fork, transmission, Intermediate housing, broken lift unit housing, and a very expensive DP lower gear set, etc.
With exception to the transmission and lower unit, none required disassembly for a "pro" to see the damage.
The corrosion alone would not have occured between real service (had it been done) and the time of the sale.
Furthermore..... No one would have serviced this drive as it was, and No one but a shyster seller would have suggested putting this boat back in the water for a sale.........
At least no one with any integrity.

.
 
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Hmmmm, did they buy this in the water? Only seeing her topsides?

What kind of ball park was the transaction? 10-15k or ??? Is this the buyers first boat? Sounds like an ugly deal, the trailer would be a nice gesture, but does the seller know about any of this?

One thing if for sure and for certain, nothing is free in waterworld!
 
I've always assumed that when buying a boat that if the price is anywhere below the current market for the boat "as presented" that there is something expensive (in the view of the seller) wrong with the boat! Only once (in three below market purchases over the last 20 years) was I wrong! FORTUNATELY, in the other two cases, the sellers turned out to be wrong and I got lucky and was able to fix the problem for very minimal $ and/or effort. ( reversed choke thermo spring in one case, a mistake by the mechanic, I saw the invoice. In the other case, the shift sense rod on the drive was on the wrong side). I did not have surveys done in either case, electing to do my own, given the very low purchase prices in both cases. As mentioned, I got lucky... HOWEVER, I knew the risk I was taking. The issue for me, is.... Apparently the boat was overpriced for its actual condition. While they buyer may not have any rights where you are, here in NJ there is a crime called "theft by deception"... and if the seller claimed that 8K in repairs had been done and can't prove it given the condition, then it's theft. While I try to never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity, the seller's failure, IMHO, to come forward and make the buyer whole when the issues surfaced puts this whole sad story in the "malice" side of the fence. I am surprised that given the YC situation that the seller didn't rush to make the buyer whole. Most folks in YCs ( I'm a long time member of one) go out of their way to give fellow members good deals, less they end up with a "black eye" (not literally!). To me it is simple... there is a thief in the boatyard somewhere... either the seller (if the work was not done and paid for) or the mechanic ( if the work was done and paid for). The buyer was likely reasonable to expect an honest deal from a fellow YC member, however if the purchase ( my guidelines!) was more than 20 times an appraisal fee, an appraisal should have been done regardless. An honest seller, especially in the YC situation, should be expected to make the buyer whole, given that the seller relied on the YC connection, in dissuading the buyer from having a survey done.
 
Rick:

Interesting post of a very unfortunate situation. It appears that the seller may have done quite a "sales job" on the buyer.

If this were a "normal" transaction where the buyer and seller do not know each other I would say the blame falls squarely on the buyer for not being diligent in getting inspections and / or a survey. If the seller (and so called friend) sold the boat as "turn key, needs nothing, perfect condition", etc... I'd say the seller should step up and AT A MINIMUM split the cost of the repairs.

In retrospect, the seller should have insisted the buyer get inspections / surveys.

At this point, with the repairs paid, I would think handing over the title to the trailer FREE would be a good (but less than adequate) jesture.

That is my two cents.
 
Both you and Bob make good points. Thanks for the thoughts!
BTW, the buyers will reading this, if they have not already.

Again.... the buyer (in retro-spect) is fully aware that a survey should have been performed. But they trusted this person and moved forward without!

I'm fortunate that I was able to help them, and glad that they found me rather than some schmuck who may have taken further advantage of them.
They are very nice people! People who I could easily become friends with.

Keep em com'n for another day or two.
I may eventually ask Andrew to delete this thread.... but for now it offers the buyers something to think about re; the trailer issue.
 
Rick:

Just curious...

has the buyer approached the seller on this yet and is the seller fully aware of the cost and scope of the repairs?

Where is the disconnect re: the $8k in repairs the seller said he had done? Are there any repair receipts to back up his claim or was it fiction?
 
Rick, seeing alot of the answers here i think that its unanamous that all feel that the buyers were taken, i dont want to say advantage of, but the discidion to not do a servey pertains to the whole YC membership. I think that untill the seller actually sees the bills accured and the parts that you have he will/will not state where the 8K in repaires previously were done/not done. Like in NJ in AZ if your represent that work was done while in the act of selling something and it has not been done it is theft by deception. I think that it would be completly kosher for the buyer to sit with the seller and say, hey, this is what has happened since i bought the boat, please tell me your side of the story again, see the bad parts, see the damaged parts and see what happens, I know that with the YC here that they would be falling over themselves trying to at least come out with the FACTS of what was said, done, worked on, ect and the small amount of the trailer would be a moot point. Just my 2 cents
 
This reminds me of an Audi 5000 I once sold to a friend many years back. My audi was giving me problems at the time and my friend knew that. I told him every problem I evrer had with the car and sold it to him REALLY cheap. I also made him sign a disclaimer that said "This car is a known piece of **** and is sold as is...." Ha! Funny but true. I didnt want him coming back and telling me it had issues... and he never did.
 
It occurs to me that there is a lein on the trailer? Depending on which state the title is held (possibly Washington) the buyer may have some recourse to sick the state on the seller. If there is a lein, it is the sellers responsibility to satisfy the lein in order to sell. This might be pretty small potatoes but it something. The seller sounds like a douche anyway. Any way I could screw with him I would.
 
I confess I didn't read every post in the thread, but here's my take.

The buyer should ask the seller for an amount that would make him happy. There might be a negotiation at that point, but probably not.

If the seller tells the buyer to take a hike, the buyer should do just that and not look back. I've been in similar situations and know one can get totally consumed in getting what's rightly yours. It messes up your life and destroys the joy of boating.

Give it a quick shot, then let it go...unless you get more pleasure out of getting even than you do boating.
 
We only touched on the alledged $8k worth of repairs, so I'm not privy to any in-depth detail.... plus I did not see any receipts.
All I know is that they were informed that this $ amount of work/maintenance had been done prior.
My findings and observations showed zero evidence of this. Not only zero.... but a big fat ZERO.

As for the lien on the trailer.... I'm not following that one!
The trailer title is free and clear, it's just not yet in the possession of the buyer due to a pending purchase balance (I have no idea as to any details on this).

I do agree that the buyer should present the findings and the related repair costs, and ask for some sort of compensation.
However, at this point they simply want to move on.

I appreciate all of the comments.
This topic and thread has served it's purpose.

Thanks to all of you.
 
Since some of you were curious, here are a few images of some of parts that I removed from this boat.

(cut and paste for the most part)

Here is a 280 that was equipped with a later Duo Prop lower unit.
All of these components pictured below have been removed, and new components have been installed.

There were possible signs of a previous impact, but from what I can tell, if there had been an impact it likely occured long before these corroded components reached this degree of disorder.
This damage appeared to be mainly from corrosion damage that ultimately caused the components to break and fall from the transom shield on this mid 80's XXXX SDN F/B boat.
From my experience with this drive, this damage (if on an otherwise NON-Corroded system) would have survived a mild impact.... not a severe impact that would lead to twisted components.
The image does not show this, but all three parts of the Universal shaft were either twisted beyond use, or rusted beyond use.
Even the center section was twisted, and the new crosses would not install into it.


As said, I have seen possible signs of impact on this drive, but not necessarily what caused the drive to fall from the transom shield. It would appear more likely that corrosion damage lead to it's self destruction.

Here are most of the components that I have removed.
Note the suspension fork.
The break in this fork is not clean and fresh.... it demonstrates corrosion that made it's way deep into the aluminum.
A normal impact break, on an otherwise Non-Corroded drive, will reveal clean aluminum if when removed from the water shortly after the ordeal.

All of these parts were too severely corroded to re-use (green arrows).... in fact, I'm quite surprised that this boat even ran for a test drive!

The blue arrow points to one exhaust coupler that litterally broke through while pushing on it. It was blistered on the interior from over-heating at some point.

The green arrows point to many areas that were corroded beyond use; set pin ears, shift mech housing, clamping collar and bolt heads, Intermediate housing lower pivot tube boss, transmission gear case, suspension fork, water neck fitting, etc.

The lower unit housing survived, but required a complete over-all internally!

The sea water pump impeller was shredded, and pieces were missing from the blades... pump itself is OK

attachment.php





The PDS bearings were badly rusted. There was no sign of any grease within the F/C cavity.... basically bone dry!
attachment.php



DP gear set damaged beyond use.
attachment.php




I think you'll find that these pictures pretty much complete the story.
Post again if you want to, and I'll gladly read your comments.

Again, I appreciate your input.

.
 
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Rick, I don't know about where you live but up here, it's almost that time. I haven't forgotten about these folks. How are things coming along with this project? Remember, I still expect to see pics of their first day on the water. That would make this and their unfortunate ordeal all worth while.
 
We're getting there, Woodie. Light snow two/three days ago, but it doesn't mean much this late in March.
The boat owners will be bringing it back to me this spring. We've spoken several times.
I'll be doing an new ignition coil, an ACR install, and we'll probably do another sea trial.
Yes, I'll take my camera along for sure.

I have not asked any further about their dealings with all the damage and/or with the PO.

.
 
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