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BF30A Mystery :'(

Samav

Contributing Member
Hello guys, its finally time for me to post on here again after going through every trick I could pull out of my hat to figure out yet another problem with my 30+ year old engine. I hope you wizards are more perceptive than me, because I am beyond frustrated and defeated.

Here's the problem: BF30A idles rough, cuts out at low rpm, and sometimes is hard to start after dying at idle. Keep in mind, I have experienced no power loss whatsoever at low, medium, or high throttle. Just problems at idle.

Easy, right? Carbs, obviously. Time to clean them. Did that, no change. Must have missed something, let me do it again. No change. Ok, fine, I'll rebuild them. New o-rings, new jets, new fuel/air mixture screws, new float pins, completely and thoroughly cleaned this time, no orifice was left clogged. Check throttle plates, check choke, all good. Engine isn't hard to start anymore, but still dying at idle. Progress?

Next thought was fuel, tried replacing my fuel in case it was tainted, fuel can was clean, new fuel-water separator, cleaned and replaced all fuel lines, new fuel filter, fuel pump working well, everything fuel wise I double and triple checked. No change.

I noticed my fuel filter was dropping well below half-full the longer my engine idled, but the hesitation at idle and eventual dying will happen well before the fuel filter reaches this point. I tried continuously priming the priming bulb to maintain constant high fuel pressure, and there was no change.

Compression test time. Perfect readings across the board (120 psi if anyone wondered. And before anyone comments that that reading is low, 120 psi has been the steady compression reading across all cylinders for me since I bought this engine. And it has run perfectly for years at 120 psi).

Spark check, all good. New spark plugs anyway. No change

Drop coil test, no apparent issues, Replace coils anyway, no change.

Valves?? Went through the each cylinder at TDC and did valve clearances. All were good, except one, which I fixed. No change.

Vacuum leak? Tuned my carbs and didn't notice any signs of a vacuum leak, still sprayed carb cleaner around intake etc.. couldn't find one to speak of.

TIMING?! Yes, checked the timing, was good, but I still decided to take the belt off and go through the timing procedure again just to be thorough. No change.

Finally decided to do a leak-down test. Yes, I checked each cylinder at TDC of compression stroke. I have a cheap Amazon special leak-down tester, so I don't know if I trust the readings, but after calibrating it I got about 35% loss across all cylinders. Not terrible for an old engine. This is where it gets weird. For each cylinder, when I plugged the leak-down tester and compressed air shot in the cylinder, I could hear air blowing out inside my head. I took the valve cover off, and sure enough, I could FEEL air escaping from my intake valve on cylinder 3. Mind you, my tester was plugged into cylinder 1. Plugged it into cylinder 2, same story. Air seemingly leaking past the intake valve on cylinder 3. Plugged into cylinder 3, same story, BUT I got the same 35% loss in cylinder 3 that I did for cylinder 1 and 2.

So here's my question to all of you. How is it possible that I could have a leaking intake valve in cylinder 3, seemingly connected to cylinders 1 and 2, while still maintaining perfect compression across the board and having even and good leak-down test numbers? My first thought was a blown head gasket, but I would think if cylinders 1 and 2 were leaking into cylinder 3 to that extent, I would have massive power loss and misfiring, which I don't. Also, I would think that the compression readings would be significantly lower across the board, and especially in cylinder 3 where it seems I have a leaky valve. If I can HEAR air leaking past a valve, even when it is closed, compression should be wayyyy lower in that cylinder, and leak-down should show massive loss. And yet, compression is good across the board, leak-down is even and good across the board. How is this possible? Am I just stupid? Please someone help me. I'm out of ideas.

Also of note: I know water and steam coming out of the exhaust is normal, but sometimes it seems like an excessive amount of water and steam are coming out. Nothing crazy just...maybe slighly more than normal? Honesly I can't even tell, but maybe this also points to a head gasket leak. I would think if that were the case, though, I would have water in my oil.
 
Samav,
Sorry you're having such troubles. I know it's very frustrating.

The truth is though, it is pretty obvious this engine has alot of wear. When it was new, the compression was close to 200 psi so 120 IS low. But....it makes power enough to satisfy your needs, so OK. Fair enough. They will sometimes run fairly well with under 100psi compression so I get what you're saying.

The leak down numbers: 35% IS very low and considered excessive. Below 20% is considered "viable" but 15% and under is typically considered "good".

I think you know all this already.

You did this test to gain information and now you have it. This engine seems to be pretty worn but is worn evenly.

The leaking between cylinders seems to indicate head gasket failure or maybe something worse. But I don't really know.

I assume that the leaking you're hearing from the valves is at the valve stems. Could it be that the valve is leaking so badly, that air is charging the intake manifold and is coming up past the other cylinder's open valve?

Try doing the test with the throttle held wide open and see if the "cross cylinder leakage" goes away. If so, it's entirely possible that you might be able to get the valves sealed well enough to make many more wakes with your outboard.
 
Agree with Jimmy, comp should be 180 to 200. Did you do the test with wide open throttle?.130psi will most certainly cause idle issue. You don't mention carb sync, did you check it?
 
Thanks for the responses guys. Jgmo, thanks for clarifying basically my position on this engine. I know that the readings are low, I've posted enough on this forum and heard it a million times, but those readings have been consistent for years without any change, and the engine has always run well enough for my liking (puts out plenty of power, very fuel efficient, has always started first crank, and always idled quietly without any hesitation). This is with 120 psi compression. And yes, iang, I always do the test with the engine at operating temperature and WOT, and I always sync my carbs after I clean them and adjust the pilot screws to their favorite positions. Trust me, I want it to be a carb problem as much as anyone, but I have been pretty thorough in my efforts here, especially fuel side.

Jgmo, interesting idea with cross cylinder leakage. I will perform the test you mentioned and get back to you with the results. Also, I think I'm just gonna spray some soapy water in the general area of my cylinder 3 intake valve and see if I can isolate where exactly the air is coming from. I guess it's entirely possible that there is some hole or crack in the head that I am missing. I'll let you guys know the results. In the mean time, if anyone else has any ideas, please chime in.
 
Hi Samav,
Just fyi....
If you're going to spray soap solution on and around the valve train, using water, a good dish soap like dawn treated with a small amount of glycerin makes better, more easily seen, hearty bubbles.
To protect the metals, spray WD-40 on everything afterwards when cleaning up. WD-40 was developed for N.A.S.A. in my adopted hometown....San Diego... to help prep metals for painting prior to going into space.

The WD actually stands for Water Displacing and 40 is the number of the "batch" that they deemed worked the best.
GOOD STUFF!
 
Jgmo, thanks for the tip with the WD-40, did exactly as you said. Also, I did your cross cylinder leakage test and it made no difference. Anyway, I have determined the source of the air leaving my cylinders to be from the oil drain hole at the bottom of the head, not from my cylinder 3 intake valve. Not sure how I missed that, but to me that indicates a head gasket leak into one or multiple of the oil galleries. It must be quite small as I'm pumping almost 100 psi into those cylinders and only getting a tiny whistle. This would also explain why I'm not seeing any differences in compression readings and why my leak-down test results were the same across the board. Let me know if you guys agree with me or maybe I'm just making stuff up in my head lol. Honestly, at this point I'll probably just tear the engine down to the block and do a head gasket replacement. Probably should do piston rings as well if anyone has a good place to source those. And I'll hopefully reuse the whole valve train as long as the valves and seats aren't pitted to hell. Once again, if anyone has a good lead on where to source parts for such a job for a 97 Honda 30, please let me know. Boats.net has some stuff, but not everything.
 
Well,
I wonder if that leakage is simply piston ring "blow by" into the oil sump?

I agree with you that you will probably need to open it up to try and fix it and that will neccesitate a new head gasket.

But, because this engine seems to be so evenly worn, you might just be able to put in some new piston rings and get some more miles out of her if the cylinder walls will clean up some with a ball hone. I don't know. I'm just trying to "speculate positive" here.

boats.net only lists standard size piston rings available and yumbo-jp said "contact us" when I put in the 0.25mm oversize number.

Make sure to check the crankshaft end play before tearing down. New thrust bearings are available.


I hope you can get it back up and running.
 
35% Is very borderline. If you motor is in good condition corrosion wise I would probably be inclined to do a rebuild. The best priced parts are from Yumbo Parts in Japan, look them up. They have full catalogues same as boats.net only way cheaper.
 
Blow by seems to be a more reasonable explanation honestly. I wonder if it has gotten just bad enough for my engine to finally realize some performance issues such as the idle problem that started all of this. Anyway, thanks for the parts website guys. I'll start looking into doing a semi-rebuild. Just enough stuff to get a little more life out of the engine. I'm moving soon anyway and will be selling the boat. Thanks for all the responses jgmo and iang.
 
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