1989 Evinrude 88 SPL (E88MSLCER) Exhaust Housing Leaking???

[drobertsobx]

New day new problem I think...
Both Heads completely descaled.
Both head gaskets replaced and heads torqued to 20 ft/lbs on the bench.
I have not retorqued the heads yet after the run gonna wait till morning.

I installed the motor to the outboard exhaust housing, torqued everything to spec...
I Used a chain hoist, everything went smooth as silk no hang-ups or
alignment issues slipped right on down smooth onto the drive spline. zero issues.

Hooked all electrical back up.

Primed her up, and she started right up on second attempt. Ran idle up to 1200 RPM
to test for overheat.

First thing I noticed I wasn't getting any water blown out of the two
exhaust holes (Last time run, it was spitting water not a ton but some onto my legs) just before the over heat issue.

The temp started rising on the top of the starboard side head first... not to an overheat but
warmer than I was expecting.

Starboard side (160-174+- Top of head): cycling with the thermostats. SEEMS HIGH for a fast idle
Port side was cycling at (150-160+- Top of head)
Both bottoms in the 140's at the overheat sensors.
Telltale water cold throughout testing.

I felt comfortable enough with the overheat issue I started looking around for leaks
or anything that didn't look right on the entire motor.

There is a bunch of water running out of the front area below the stud and bolt
for the exhaust housing on the starboard side, not from the base gasket and seems to be spun up
with the shaft. I never even looked up there on the initial run as it overheated so fast.
all my attention was with the laser on the heads.

Almost at my limit on this motor...

Can anyone hazard a guess as to what this is and if it is a problem, doesn't seem right to me?

 

[fdrgator]

Seal #72 missing

 

[fdrgator]

Oops, forgot the picture
#72

 

[drobertsobx]

I put in a totally new water pump in the spring. Would pulling the motor
have affected it in some way?

 

[drobertsobx]

Oops, forgot the picture
#72View attachment 31356

Thank you very much for the help...
I had replaced the entire pump this spring, I think the turbulent removal of the motor may have dislodged or broken something. The motor was salted in bad all screws caked and the base gasket had been leaking at some point freezing the motor and base with salt.
Just kept putting the salt away and penetrating oil to everything.
When it decided to come free it popped up violently on the chain hoist.

I just ordered 69, 70, 72 and 73

 

[drobertsobx]

Seal #72 missing

I Forgot to mention:
I found while running a tap through all the holes for the heads, to clean them up, that bolt hole #7 on the port side of the block was cross threaded, as bad as I have ever seen, so that's why I had to pull the motor- to drill and tap for repair with a Heli-Coils. I had a feeling it would not be able to be torqued again.

So anyway I pulled the lower unit, the grommet was there.

Can't make sense of the number on it even paint filled (maybe 351128) but doesn't look close to the actual OMC grommet part number (#72 - 320943)
While inspecting the pump housing I noticed everything was packed with sand again...

So figured I better flush everything again. Sprayed out all the hollow sections for the exhaust then I put the hose nozzle against the pipe feeding the water to the engine until I had water coming out the telltale. I did this several times allowing it to drain completely (my assumption was there was still sand in the jacket and feed pipe perhaps), I soon noticed that water seemed to coming out in the area where I saw the leak in the OP.

I only noticed it because I had the motor tilted all the way up and I heard water dripping into the boats splash well.
I put the motor down and sure enough, water ran from the same area just by duplicating what the pump would do by spraying directly into the tube at full stream.

So I'm thinking the grommet doesn't look like it is going to fix this issue, I have a new one on the way and I will install, but if I can replicate the "issue" with the hose, then I'm thinking the water is not being pumped up the drive shaft from the pump into the drive area...
...If that is what the grommet is there to prevent(???)

Going back over my pictures there did appear to be a 2 sets of water channels, [blue circle] going up into the motor, was packed with salt and likely passing very little if any water but this couldn't get to the drive area without a brand new gasket failing(???).

The other 2 channels are between the exhaust and the drive area [pink ellipse] one channel on each side of the thrust cover bolt, filled with gasket material and salt. My first thought maybe this was the waters' path for getting into the drive area(???) but I don't know.
The channels are shown in the water path image but no associated flow is shown.

The motor shows holes and slots in these areas but am not sure if they would be covered by the gasket, I test fitted on the housing not the motor, and I can't recall if the holes or slots went anywhere into the motor or were just voids...
The only hole in the gasket is for the channel to the hole in the motor [Blue Circle].

I just can't see into that area to know for sure where the water is coming from. Nothing in my pictures indicates there was ever any water
running through the drive area in the past, just oil and grease.

The boat has about 5 minutes total runtime by me, on the hose in the driveway, since I bought it.
Between electrical issues (boat and motor) then the overheating issue, shipping delays on parts and my health, 5 months have evaporated with very little progress on the big problem, the overheating. Everything else is done.

My hopes of having it running for early season duck have vanished along with mid season duck.
If I can't get this figured out soon, the season is lost.
I won't use an untested motor in the late season cold, that is just asking for trouble at my age.
So I have a couple weeks to figure this out, fix it, and get it in the water for testing before using it for hunting.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Pictures:
1-2 grommets 3 water flow diagram 4 exhaust housing (unfortunately didn't take a pic after cleaning) but did clean it up and removed all salt from the thin channels and all the gasket and (sealer -which should not have been there according to the service manual) but they used plenty on both sides of the gasket 5 Bottom of motor 6 Gasket

 

[fdrgator]

And I was so sure that (72) was it. You evidently has a situation I haven't experienced. Sorry I can't be of more help.

 

[drobertsobx]

And I was so sure that (72) was it. You evidently has a situation I haven't experienced. Sorry I can't be of more help.

Thank you for trying... It is a bizzare issue, doesn't make any sense how water is getting there.

 

[drobertsobx]

So, I did a barrel run today after re-installing the lower unit and re-torqueing the heads to get the idle set at 900 RPM.
Idles smooth and is very steady, ran it for about 30-40 minutes.

Still got water coming out the front into the cup area.
No overheat alarm triggered.

The temperatures on both heads ran about 135-145 at the sensors from the side of the head.
Other head results:
port top running 145-152 , starboard top running 155-165 all 3 cycling up and down with thermostats measured on the covers.
port Middle running 140-145 , starboard Middle running 145-150 cycling up and down with thermostats measured on the side of the head.
Interior Cylinder wall temps around 100-115 various places

Again the only change I can think of from first run till now was cleaning out the salt in the exhaust housing channels dumping into the thrust bearing cover area to account for any water being there if water does feed out from the two holes???.

Anyway have decided to try a run and see what happens, so tagging the trailer tomorrow and hopefully in the water Wed or Thurs.

If it doesn't overheat I guess I'm going to call it good, unless I get any replies saying what the problem is or might be on the water coming out the front.

I don't need WOT or anything near it running in the dark or coming home, if I can do 1500-2000 RPM with no issue It would be fine for my use.

Winter water temps on the sounds run about the same as my hose at 53-60F on avg and typical rough seas (usually 2-3 foot) most days all year,
mean slow speeds anyway.

Still deciding weather to even try WOT or not.

 

[drobertsobx]

ok so the leak got worse and very little was getting to the heads unless I removed the hoses by the end.
So I pulled the motor again to carefully inspect everything.
Gasket was fine
no parts missing that I could tell.

Back flushing the motor at the heads, water comes out the single hole (Correlates to the gasket hole) that has that channel back to the inlet opening.

There appear to be corrosion on the exhaust base that could go into the drive shaft area where the water appears to be coming out it is definitely not a smooth area for a gasket to seal on it's own is my guess.
I have not check for flatness yet due to rain.
Contemplating a filler at any rate.

I didn't think at the time they were deep enough to cause a leak and wasn't sure any water was there to begin with, shamefully my thinking did not involve pump pressures at the time.
So I thought about it all night.

Is it possible that that hole/channel(s) acts in 2 fashions (now calling it a "weep channel(s)")

1) Allow water to completely fill the water jacket while filling with water as it pushes down to the hole.
2) Now being full of water, A) Allow water to drain (on shut down)
B) Recirculate a small portion (when running)

At this point I have to assume all the gasket sealer applied in the past was to fix this issue???

I mean there was a significant amount in the pitting and on the faces of the base and motor
The gasket remover (spray can) cleaned all of it up on the face and out of the pitting). Spray on wipe off with a towel.

I would like to test this but not with the omc gasket sealer (way to hard to remove from everything even with gasket remover (everything just remains a tacky sticky mess).
The RTV is a simple peel off process if the test fails.

Would a grey high temp/pressure resistant RTV sealer/gasket maker work in the long term if it is successful for a test?

I'm just going to mount the motor and use a hose to pressurize the copper feed tube with the lower unit removed, and see if water comes out the drive area.

 

[racerone]

Remove ---adapter , exhaust housing------inspect gasket and water tube.

 

[drobertsobx]

Remove ---adapter , exhaust housing------inspect gasket and water tube.

For anyone following I completed the live water tests to see what exactly was going on with the water not shown in the water flow diagram.

Exhaust housing, water fed to copper tube under hose pressure...
Only water from the square feed on the housing, thumb over feed no leaks anywhere.
Neither drain was blocked water flowed out to exhaust housing as designed

Water Fed to Square
Only water from the copper tube.

Water put into exhaust area and covered to some pressure with hands, water came out of everywhere but the copper tube and the drive line hole.

Light test from bottom:
There with light visible from the copper tube area to the exhaust drain for the hole (this would be draining whatever is coming out of the hole in the motor via the weep channel and excess water via the weep channel on the inlet feed.

No water went to the Main exhaust tube, no light from exhaust tube to either area.

This seems to be a isolated system from the main exhaust/water system that goes back down to the pump area.

So water can only get there via the weep channels, the motor simply has a void for this area (misstated as exhaust in pic 1) ie no combustion gasses here so exhaust is not it's purpose, water path to that drain is.

My son took a picture (seen below pic 3) of the water when trying pressurize the spot between the weep channels

From motor (hose with washer on the end) pressed to water inlet hole and head drains.
Inlet hole immediately out the motor drain hole.
Back flush from heads, water came out through the same circular motor drain but with less pressure than the inlet hole.

by then I was completely soaked and cold so didn't try finger plugging the motor hole for it to come out head drains.

Any way I have no idea what is cooled by that circuit, but it seems to function and isn't in the diagram so it must be cooling something or has some other purpose, water is fed to the motor is used and discarded into the starboard exhaust drain through the weep channel down to the pump area.

 

[drobertsobx]

For anyone following I completed the live water tests to see what exactly was going on with the water not shown in the water flow diagram.

Exhaust housing, water fed to copper tube under hose pressure...
Only water from the square feed on the housing, thumb over feed no leaks anywhere.
Neither drain was blocked water flowed out to exhaust housing as designed

Water Fed to Square
Only water from the copper tube.

Water put into exhaust area and covered to some pressure with hands, water came out of everywhere but the copper tube and the drive line hole.

Light test from bottom:
There with light visible from the copper tube area to the exhaust drain for the hole (this would be draining whatever is coming out of the hole in the motor via the weep channel and excess water via the weep channel on the inlet feed.

No water went to the Main exhaust tube, no light from exhaust tube to either area.

This seems to be a isolated system from the main exhaust/water system that goes back down to the pump area.

So water can only get there via the weep channels, the motor simply has a void for this area (misstated as exhaust in pic 1) ie no combustion gasses here so exhaust is not it's purpose, water path to that drain is.

My son took a picture (seen below pic 3) of the water when trying pressurize the spot between the weep channels

From motor (hose with washer on the end) pressed to water inlet hole and head drains.
Inlet hole immediately out the motor drain hole.
Back flush from heads, water came out through the same circular motor drain but with less pressure than the inlet hole.

by then I was completely soaked and cold so didn't try finger plugging the motor hole for it to come out head drains.

Any way I have no idea what is cooled by that circuit, but it seems to function and isn't in the diagram so it must be cooling something or has some other purpose, water is fed to the motor is used and discarded into the starboard exhaust drain through the weep channel down to the pump area.

I forgot to add the close up of the base to weep channel, there is definitely a deep gouge from corrosion going to the gasket, that is no longer filled with the gasket sealant

 

[drobertsobx]

Upon i

I forgot to add the close up of the base to weep channel, there is definitely a deep gouge from corrosion going to the gasket, that is no longer filled with the gasket sealant

Upon inspecting the gasket, the hole is the same size as the channel and would likely centers on it, so that big area of pitting corrosion and gasket sealer is an area that should never be wet (according to the new gasket), so the gasket has failed in the past or had a larger opening, and allowed salt water to sit there.

I will confirm the holes location tomorrow when I check for flatness.
I have also decided to fill the biggest area(s) around the channel in with JB 5 minute Epoxy putty, I'm sure I can get it close if not totally level with the top without having to grit sand, by "sanding" with a towel on a board before it totally hardens/cures in an hour. I have used this method in the past with 100% success with a shop towel stapled to a piece of 1x4x4 board.
It will always have the gasket and the torque force from the bolts on it so it should never come out, until or unless the motor/gasket is removed if then.
Has to be better than filling with gasket sealer

 

[drobertsobx]

I was reading the procedure for removing the exhaust adapter...
another issue/question comes up....

While looking on the site for the parts to do the job (gaskets for the housing bottom etc. that I am inspecting), my motor has a gasket on the upper mount cover.
I can find no such gasket on the parts site... (marineengine.com) and the part image on the site does not include a gasket.
If I can't replace it, I don't want to remove it to inspect it.

Is there supposed to be water there??? and it is it possibly leaking??? Part number 35 is the cover
Looks like the grounding strap is also missing


Almost forgot:
The Hole in the motor is much larger (size of the pitted area) than the hole in the gasket.
The hole in the gasket is directly over the channel, not the pitted area.

 

[drobertsobx]

OK, all seals, gaskets, grommets replaced, leak fixed...

Pump seems very strong telltale the most I've ever seen from it.

test 1
Started with both hoses left off, both heads running strong flow of water.
Put hoses on started motor.
Temp slowly increased on both to 121 all seemed good
Then dramatic rise from 121 to 160 then alarm.
Good water flow at prop, 6 slots, telltale
Removed both hoses allowed to run till cool.

test2
Port side hose hooked up starboard left off.
Portside maintained proper temperature cycled as intended.
starboard of course cool
no overheat

test3
port side on starboard on...
monitored starboard... at 160 I pulled hose... it was vapor locked no water from head.
after about 5 seconds water flowed from head allowed to run till cool.

test 3 repeated 4 more times same results.

So it looks like the problem is the starboard side and it would appear it is vapor locking or running such a low volume of water it gets very hot preventing water from moving.

No idea what to do next.

I was thinking of a thermostat delete, but really, really don't feel like pulling the motor again.
Thermostats and all associated parts are new and were checked for function on the last pull they open and close smoothly and were put in with a fresh set of gaskets.

 

[racerone]

Looked at the water diverters on this engine ?

 

[drobertsobx]

Pulled both heads, descaled and replaced all 4 diverters. Installed with new head gaskets, and cover gaskets

 

[drobertsobx]

Looked at the water diverters on this engine ?

Got this on the iboats forum: Anyone else heard of this?

these can develop an air bubble in the t stat housing, keeping the t stats closed or barely seated and not fully open. there is a notch to be made in the poppet valves to stop this happening. get it in the water and let it warm up to at least 125f and rev it up with a quick blast... should clear itself. can't really diagnose these on the hose... not enough backpressure

 

[drobertsobx]

So, got the thermostat housing out, once again bit in the ass for not knowing to look for the hole in the slot to void the air.

It was of course plugged with salt and that entire slot was filled with gasket seal when I first took it out months ago.

Not knowing I didn't really attempt to clean it out fully. It is not even mentioned in the manual.
So I totally cleaned it out with gasket remover and q-tips as best I could then using my torch tip cleaners I cleaned out the hole and made it slightly larger (it was between two of my cleaners one loose one too tight).

I also notched the valves at 12 and 6 as suggested on the other forum to help expel air faster, as this seems to be a very common issue when you know what you are looking for.

Hopefully my ignorance will help others with idle overheat issues.

 

[drobertsobx]

Notching the valves and reaming the air escape hole seems to have worked. Ran the motor on the hose both heads settled in at 145(p)-150(s) with 20 minute runtime, with no overheat alarm.
Temp cycled with t-stats on both and t-stats housing reflected head temps so gonna conclude that this issue is fixed.
Thanks to all for the help.