290DP rebuild/repair question

DonnyH said:

started afternoon pulling boat from salt after 30 months since last out drive service, new bellows and lower seals, etc. was done by me at that time.
This means 30 months (or 2.5 years) in salt water with NO service???
If so, I would look closely for corrosion damage.


finished evening with drive off boat after I realized bellows clamps had failed and the milky oil was found.
The milky drive oil did not occur over night.
Water rusts the carbon steel seal surface washer. The washer surface then becomes abrasive, and it then starts to ruin the seal lip.


The upper bearings and shifter gears look OK and oil milkshake still had some viscosity to it. Didn't see glitter in oil but magnet on drain plug had its share. I haven't checked the PDS bearings yet but expect they need to be replaced based on reading:

http://www.marineengine.com/boat-forum/showthread.php?407281-AQ290dp-gimbal-bearing-help-volvo-gods!

I certainly would replace them.
There is no goof proof technique for checking to see if they are good, and the cost to replace them is peanuts if you know how to buy them.

and noticing some light vibration and noise from bell housing area last 2 hours of operation.
The PDS is housed in the Flywheel Cover (bellhousing is an automotive term), and if the bearings are bad, they will create a vibration.

my question is; what other parts are commonly damaged with a bellows failure?
PDS bearings, the aluminum bore for the AFT PDS bearing, main drive gear seal, main drive gear seal surface washer, universal joint shaft "bearing crosses", etc.

And what are some tests I can do to see what is good and not good?
No test that is groof proof. The PDS is coupled to the Borg Warner drive coupler, so turning it is out of the question.
You'll need to tear into it and then determine their conditions.... but since these parts are not all that expensive, you may as well replace them.


Do I need to seperate the lower from the intermediate and inspect anything?
Well, yes and no!
You'll want to check the upper pivot tube bushing, and if bad, the NEW water neck fitting "beaded gasket" will not seal correctly.
In order to change this bushing, the lower and transmission must be removed.
You can change the three O-rings (between the lower and Intermediate housing) while in there.

I have the drive off and the upper box with the U joint off currently and am mentally preparing to pull the engine soon. My guess is the failure occurred 2 months ago and drive has seen about 8-10 hours in that time.

When re-installing the drive, hang the suspension fork/Intermediate housing/lower unit as an assembly with the transmission NOT yet installed.
Install the transmission last.

FYI, the cause of bellows failure was me being cheap with Chinese bellows kit, the bellows held up fine but the clamps did not.
Use the OEM Euro style band clamps ONLY.
Store the drive fully down and aiming straight forward, and you'll extend the life of the drive shaft bellows.


BTW still have the VP ones I installed the time before and removed, 30 months ago after at least 30 months of service and they look great... Probably why I saved them. Lesson learned the hard way... I already bought VP bellows a couple weeks ago in preparation for today though I did buy the Sierra lower seal kit. I guess if I had done the maintenance at 24 months the lighter clamps would have been fine but from now on I will make sure to replace 24 months or sooner and always with VP product.

The OEM bellows are of better quality, and you may get the OEM Euro style band clamps with it.

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DonnyH said:

Thanks for prompt and detailed response Ricardo!

I already ordered 1 #6206, and 1 #6007, and two Timken 35x62x7mm rubber encapsulated single lip seals from a local bearing supply.
Are these Timken seals what you referenced as "main drive gear seal" above or do I need to order this part from a volvo parts supplier?
The main drive gear seal can also be a Timken, but is much larger.
The size will be embossed in the old seal.... just match it up.... these are mostly all Industry Standard bearings and seals.


Do you have a preferred brand of bearing grease that I am likely to find on the shelf in a local auto parts store?
Anything good high pressure grease....... I steer clear of the green marine wheel bearing grease.


I assume I will need to order a main drive gear seal surface washer, correct?
If the seal surface washer needs to be replaced, you MUST go back through the rolling torque procedure.

The existing seal suface washer can be polished with approx .004" to .006" MAX being removed without hurting anything.
Be sure to NOT leave any swirl markings in the polishing.


I will check the pivot tube assembly as noted, I was having an overheating problem that maybe related though I think it was solved with a water pump replacement I just did.
The water neck fittings will corrode, and the upper pivot tube bushings will wear out causing bead seal failure.

I do have a secondary pickup on the boat (lots of driving in kelp) so there is a chance there is an issue on the drive that is not noticed due to that redundancy.
Use one or other.

Found this post while trying to figure out what a pivot tube was:

http://www.marineengine.com/boat-forum/showthread.php?401426-AQ280-AQ260-Overheat-On-Plane

Another incredibly helpful post, you are everywhere!

Misc. tid bits: I happen to have a intact 290DP lower in good condition that I can use for parts or straight swap if needed.
When changing one lower unit for another, there is critical shimming procedure that must be followed.

Also have most of a 280DP less some of the upper parts and without the transmission upper that I might be able to use, I don't think any will be useful based on what I know now.

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DonnyH said:

Rick-

Your help so far has me going in the right direction but still have some ground to cover. A few follow up questions:

1. I looked at the PDS from the outside and there is a little play side to side (50 mils or so) inside the bearings so I assume this is causing the occasional vibration, I assume the bearings are bad and plan to replace,
Yes, if you can feel any slop from that perspective.... they are indeed bad!

I already purchased the 2 bearings you recommended (in a NSK brand) and Timkin seals. ~$75 at the local supply source for all.
Is replacement of the main drive gear surface washer and seal a certainty based on the bearing wear and water intrusion thru the bellows?
Had to say without looking at it.

If it is a done deal I will order parts to have the ready when I pull engine, otherwise I might wait to see if there is a chance they are OK.
Drain the drive oil, and perform a Pressure/Vacuum leak down test on the drive.


2. Assuming you answer to #1 requires the rolling torque procedure; I haven’t looked in my shop manual yet but assume the rolling torque procedure is well outlined. If it isn’t do you have a source I could read up on it?
The PDS bearings are nothing more than ball bearings, and do not require a rolling torque value to be adjusted.
The main drive gear bearings are two tapered roller bearings and are originally set up with a rolling torque value spec.
Only if the seal surface washer is replaced would you need to go back through the procedure.

3. I inspected my pivot tube. The bead seal was in good shape, the water neck fitting was starting to loose material on the bottom edge of the lip but still appeared functional. There was no play with the fitting and seal in place, once removed there was very little, maybe 10 mils on the top bushing sleeve, not enough for me to think a seal issue would be a factor. I plan to replace the S hose, fitting and seal but would like to avoid the bushing. The 2 longer lower end bolts are not coming out so separating the unit will be a task that may involve drilling bolt heads off.
Not following you on this one.


4. Can you explain why use of a drive water pick up and a thru hull are not good to be used in parallel? I have run the boat like this for 10 years and it was like this when I got it and it worked well. I like the redundancy as I drive thru kelp often.
If one or the other has breached suction, it would be hard to determine which one was the problem.
I would use one or the other.



5. the crosses and universal connection assembly appears to be in good mechanical condition. It has no slop and rotates smoothly at all joints. There is some minimal surface corrosion spotting. Is it unusual for this to be res-used as is given history described? Any checks I should do on these?
Marine drive shaft bearing crosses do not undergo as much articulation as do car/truck drive line bearing crosses.
The Marine bearing crosses tend to point load, and when point loading for hours and hours, the wear pattern is much more limitted to a small portion of the trunions. This makes it rather difficult to detemine their condition simply by feel.

6. related to 3 above, if I don't open up the lower or intermediate would only flushing with seafoam or some other product and maybe a few quarts of cheaper gear oil before filling with new volvo gear oil be foolish? Are there internal bearings that commonly are affected by milky oil? The rotation of the lower feels smooth and there doesn't appear to be much in the intermediate that would be affected.
When you drain the gear oil, capture the first several ounces and look closely at it.
This will usually give us a tell tale sign of what's going on inside.
If it's fairly clean...... you should be OK.
Let it drain for an hour or so.

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DonnyH said:

Rick-

questions to your responses:

1. I am not certain which part is the main drive gear seal and the surface washer, I am assuming the main drive shaft bearings are part 14&15 or 47 in attached transmission image. which part numbers are the seal and washer or is it in a different part of the drive?
SEQ #'s 14 and 15 are the tapered roller bearings for the main drive gear.
SEQ # 47 are the caged needle bearings for inside of the two driven gears.

2. sounds like the crosses are either OK or they aren't, but there's not an easy way to figure it out other that run em until they pop. In all positions mine are smooth and have no slop so I am inclined to "cross" my fingers and reinstall, pun intended!
Do allow these to fail.
My point regarding "point loading", is that the trunion wear is limitted to a very small area (due to low articulation)..... and is not easily felt when checking by hand.
The high quality Spicer 5-1306X is a direct replacement...... about $14 each if you know where to buy them.

3. Where I lost you on 3 above; my bad, I asked a question then supplemented with somewhat unrelated info... I'll try to do better; first, if there is zero play in my pivot tube with the beaded seal in place and the seal looks perfect and there is about 10 mil play when the seal is removed is replacing pivot tube bushings necessary?
The beaded gasket (what you're calling the water neck fitting "seal") when new, will mask some bushing slop until the bead begins to wear and go away.
When the bead goes away..... the slop will cause the bead to loose pivot tube contact, and you'll have a suction breach.
Perhaps not at first.... but it will eventually.

Second, while trying to separate the lower from the intermediate I found the socket screw (part 33 in the intermediate schematic attached image) seized and irremovable. If I need to separate I will try lots of heat and drill the head if that fails but I don't want to get into it if I don't have to and leave the two parts together until death does its part.
Carefully remove the 5/16" NC bolt's socket head by drilling it out....... then remove the other fasteners, and then seperate the two housings.
The remaining bolt fragment can be removed after that.

4. As far as a leak down test and looking at the oil; I already have the drive in pieces and the oil was total milk with not much sparkle or material but the magnet on the drain plug had some gunk. I assume the leak down will need to be preformed with the drive together from transmission to prop with pressure going into the dipstick hole?
Correct!

I think it might be easier to inspect the seal and washer at this point rather than reassembling with clean seals and doing leak down test. Am I misunderstanding?
I think that you got the cart ahead of the horse here.


If I do the leak down test, do I rotate the shaft and measure the pressure or leave it static? What is starting pressure and an acceptable pressure loss rate?
Good seals will hold 10+/- psi, and 8+/- in. Hg. for hours.
We rotate the shafts and eccentric piston to see if that causes the pressure to change any.


5. I tried to remove the nut on the vertical shaft in the transmission (part #51 in attached image) It is really on there tight. (I realized it is a left hand thread BTW).
Heat is your friend!
Mapp or Propane.... no Oxy/Acet.

I really probably shouldn't mess with it and leave it alone but I do dumb things sometimes. I was putting more than the 88.5 ft-# torque on it for sure and no movement. I don't think I did any damage, but did try a few hits with an impact wrench with no luck. Did I mess something up?
CW rotation for removal........ not CCW rotation.

6. I am trying to get the props off an old 280DP, first prop came off without too much effort. Second prop is on there good. It appears to have some sort of torque buffer between the shaft and the prop blades as far as I can tell from knocking on it from the back. If I put a lot of heat on the prop will I damage anything? Any other suggestions? I tried to make a puller out of several puller sets but couldn't get anything on there as geometry is too complicated and my puller sets aren't big enough.
This is somewhat common if the previous owner has not removed the props annually and cleaned and greased the shafts.
The inner hub and splines are aluminum, and corrosion loves them.
Your only option will be to sacrifice the prop.
Carefully and diagonally cut into the outer propeller blade hub in two areas, and then seperate it.
Once down the actual rubber hub, you'll carve it away with sharp chisels.
Once the rubber is removed from the inner hub, now you can apply heat to the aluminum inner hub, and remove it.

The 'ole trick when selling a Duo Prop drive with stuck props, is to sell it with the props and capitalize on the "Props Included".
I've seen this many times.
I've also cut many perfectly good FWD props from these shafts.
It makes ya sick to see one cut into pieces and become scrap metal..... all because someone did not take 10 minutes out of their day, and remove them.

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DonnyH said:

I will try and soak some oil in it and pull a few different ways for a couple weeks,
Unfortunately, penetrating oils could take weeks, even months to get in where they need to be.... and even then, it's questionable.

if I have to cut it off, Rick gave me the procedure so thanks for thanks for that.
Yep... and the key to this is the first diagonal cuts so that the saw blade avoids shaft contact.

Back to my current prediciment, the drI've is off a diesel package. It is a 1.95 but the serial number is burnt off.
Be careful..... the E drive (one of the diesel drives) uses a different and unique upper transmission reduction ratio.
Example:
A 1.95:1 drive may actually be using the 1.78:1 lower gear set to achieve an over-all reduction of 1.95:1.
(the 1.78:1 lower gear set is stronger than the 1.95:1 gear set)


Probably made or reconditioned by Volvo in 2003 or so. I think the plate said 290 DP-B. Any special considerations I should be aware of when buying replacement parts or reassembling using Volvo manual?
Just use the correct info for the drive designation.

No Seloc... and No Clymers.... OEM only!

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DonnyH said:

great info Rick and you help so far is much appreciated,
You are welcome.... that's what we're here for.

here is an update after the weekend and my next round of questions:

1. You convinced me to replace the crosses. I found newer 5-789X as the direct replacement to the 5-1306X for the Spicer brand. Am I correct in this or do I need to find 5-1306X. Napa has their version of the 5-1306X but maybe not Spicer, the image of the part online doesn't look as high quality.
The Spicer 5-1306X has the grease zerk in the aprex of the X, so it does not interfere with the ID of the bellows.
Watch out for where the zerk is placed in the other bearing crosses..... some are in the bearing cap.


2. Intermediate is apart from the lower, both socket head screws had to be sacrificed but luckily I have extra from the other drive. I tried to press the pivot tube out using a press, think I was doing it wrong, only spent a few minutes on it with light pressure. Any tips to removing? Will it be obvious which part is worn? I am assuming the bearing busing part 853062 will be the part to replace. Is is common to have issues with the lower needle bearing?
The pivot tube is rather soft.... so use caution when a shaft or ___ is used against it for pressing it out.
Yes, it is common to see the needle bearings rusted.
It's also somewhat common to see the needle bearing surface rusted.
If interested, I still have a few good pivot tubes in stock.

3. I took the lower apart and left the vertical shaft in place, hoping to not have to mess with it and to flush with diesel and reassemble. Any reason to go further if internal looks OK by inspection?
Took the lower unit apart.... as in how far down????
Did you pull the prop shaft bearing carrier out????

4. Haven't taken the transmission apart but plan is to take it apart enough to replace main seal and polish washer if I can do this by hand. Is the part #832675. Can I polish by hand with high # grit wetsand paper, like 2000?
I would suggest spinning or turning the seal surface washer while you polish it up.
If you have access to a machinist who would do this for you, that would be great.
Make sure that you end up with NO swirl markings.
Swirl marks in the wrong direction can lead to oil wicking!

A brand new seal will have about .030" squeeze on one that has NOT been polished, so you should be able to safely remove .004" to .006" from it.

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DonnyH said:

answers and more questions!:

1. As I understand the 5-789X cross is a newer sealed version that doesn't have grease ports and is reported to be more durable but can not have grease added during service intervals. I just ordered two of the 5-1306X to stay traditional.
Nothing new about the sealed versions. The OEM are all non-serviceable.
Don't fret it..... our marine bearing crosses don't undergo nearly as much articulation as does a car/truck driveline bearing cross.
Due to less articulation, ours undergo more "point loading" that causes the needles to wear in a more confined area against the trunion surface.
No amount of future grease is going to cure this.



2. Pivot tube came out with a little more pressure and some heat applied to the right spots but came out clean. had to cut out the top bushing, eventually getting it out cleanly. needle bearings look a little gunky and there is some light to moderate rust on pivot tube there on opposing sides. I will buy a new needle bearing for $35. the pivot tube is $620, ouch! I do have 2 other pivot tubes in spare 280 DP and other partial 290 DP that I will press out and inspect so cross my fingers I find a clean one. I am cheap so I might install the best one even if there is some light rust index it so it is wearing on the best surface. The one I removed had rust on 2 spots 180 degrees apart. are these wear spots typically 12 and 6 o'clock? I will pay more attention to the next two I remove to see rust/wear pattern.
Yes, I too would use the best one that you have on hand.
The pivot tube needle bearing point loading will be on one side moreso than the other.
Simply rotate the good side as to face the load......., and you'll be OK.

BTW, I do have a few near pristine condition pivot tubes if interested...... $180 for one.

3. I left the prop shaft and the gear and the bearing in the lower. Everything feels very snug with no slop and the remaining milky oil is clean to the touch.
If you pull the bearing carrier out, you can replace the prop shaft seals.
As long you keep track of the shim(s) behind the main angular contact bearing (the thrust load bearing)......, nothing to the shim value changes while doing this.
You'll need to build yourself a simple carrier pulling tool.
(see image below)

4. A brand new main shaft seal washer is $25, I do have access to a lathe but getting to that or finding a machinist will be more hassle than ordering a OEM part and my list of tasks is growing by the day. I will keep the old one and polish when I have time.
OK... if you do change this part out, you will need to check the bearing box rolling torque value.... and re-adjust as per OEM specs.

5. Next challenge is my steering system. I have the volvo hyro -assist 852741 unit, I rebuilt it once with standard seals I bought and it worked great and seems to still have good action. Recently my steering was not behaving and after getting parts off I see the issue is my yoke and arm assemble are very very tight, almost seized and the arm is corroded heavily. If I work it back and forth it loosens a little but it should be replaced or at least come apart, cleaned and rebuilt. I have the sender off and had to drill the cap off the socket screw on the arm but the assembly is not going anywhere. I am prepping to cut the arm off. Any tips? I really don't want to damage the yoke as I have no backups. (Luckily I purchased a used 852741 unit off ebay 5 years ago for a great price and it included the arm and 2 link rods, all in pristine condition so I have an extra arm.) If I cut the forward portion of the arm of and wedge it open around the spline is there any other spot that will hold it up? Do you know the size of the screw that I drilled out? VP part # 959241
The collar steering fork plastic bushings are housed in the transom shield's aluminum bosses.
When/if these get wet (especially with salt water), the aluminum corrodes and expands.
The expansion causes the bushings to crush down on the shaft, causing very stiff drive articulation.

You'll need to remove the spindle arm, and then gently drive wooden wedges between the collar steering fork and transom shield from outside of the transom shield.
Once out.... the bushings are easy to replace.
(see image below)


I'm still having fun, learning a lot and enjoying seeing progress. I would be making a lot more mistakes without the great advice Rick. Hopefully this thread will be useful to others as several I found earlier were to me. Apologize if I am covering ground others already have in previous threads, feel free to link me there if so. Donny
Yes, I've covered this many times over the years.
Use the search feature, and you'll find similar threads.

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DonnyH said:

The rolling torque adjustment; when I replace the washer and seal I understand i need to do this and I will either need a new crush bearing or have to re shim the assembly to get it right depending on which version I have. Most likely I have the crush bearing version. Will figure it out tonight when I take it apart.
According to your schematic in your post #8, you have a Pre-A transmission.
The Pre-A transmissions use shims for the Bearing Box rolling torque value control.
These shims will be just inside of the main drive gear seal surface washer.

The "A" and later transmissions use the "pre-tension" or "crush sleeve" for this control.

Getting near the end of the tear down and ready to order $300 worth of parts. First parts order last month was seal kits, oil and bellows and hopefully the next time I do this in a year or two will be only oil and seal kits as well.
A good re-seal will last for many years.

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DonnyH said:

Assume I need to keep the drive pickup as it cools the steering hydraulic fluid as well. I drive thru a lot of kelp and it gas been using dual pickups for probably over 15 years, I have owned it for around 10. Not saying it is right but it seems to be working. I have another friend that has been running dual pickups for longer with no issues.
If it's been working for you..... then there ya go!

Update: wood wedges worked great though it took an hour and cutting arm off and seperating from splines with a steel wedge. steering yoke is out clean... sort of... no damage i did tonight but bad corrosion on splines and shaft bearing surface above splines and connection points at bottom. I will attach a picture tomorrow for entertainment purposes.
I'll look forward to seeing the pictures.


If I buy a used yoke, will I be able to attach my old shield? The attachment appears to be riveted sort of and the fastener is not in production. New assembly is $$$.
I'm not following you on this one!

Anyone out there with a yoke and shield for sale?

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DonnyH said:

see attached pics of yoke as well as images from VP manual and an image I ripped off ebay showing a bolted option for connecting the helmet to yoke. Has anyone seen this bolted option and is it OE ?

Yes the later AQ drives came with bolts. At times you can find on Ebay,separate yokes, helmets and even the bolts.

I do not know if a rivet model can use bolts.

I converted my yokes and steering arms,tiller arms, whatever, to the later square drive, I find them easier to deal with when replacing the seals, it makes the job easier. But the limiting factor is if a square drive tiller arm is available in the configuration you need.
I bought used parts to do this, as you know new is crazy money.

I'm curious how and where your power steering fluid cooler is located and how it is plumbed into the cooing system.

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DonnyH said:

update:


Currently I am tackling the U joints.
I removed the old crosses with a modest amount of effort and press work, they were pressed in pretty tight.
You should have been able to remove the bearing caps with mild press pressure, or a brass hammer.

They were sealed style without a zerk
All bearing cross trunion caps are sealed.

and the clips on the outside of end caps.
OK.... this is either a later transmission, or someone has changed out the universal drive shaft.


The new spicer 5-1306X ones I bought appear to use the internal C clip
That would be correct!
These bearing crosses work with the early universal drive shafts only. The type whereby the bearing cross caps are internally clipped.

which look to be a tight fit in my U joints.
I think I may need to dress the inside of the u-joints to open up enough room to allow the C clips to install. Is this common or OK?
Do not attempt to install the 5-1306X in your universal drive shaft.
These will not work!


When tried to press the first cap set with cross in they did not want to go. I tried a few different ways, then pressed even harder thinking the U-joint yoke was strong enough to press the caps against each other. Bad idea and boy was I wrong, the caps got about half way in but I bent the yoke arms in a good 1/8" each. After 2 hours of creative use of the press and four letter words and a few broken tools I extracted the caps and returned the yoke to the original geometry.
Please note that even a very slight twist or out-of-alignment scenario with any of these components, will cause a serious vibration issue.
This shaft turns the same RPM as the engine does.

I have complete universal shafts to sell, if interested.

I polished the interior of the other yoke cross holes down a bit with some sandpaper and pressed a cap all the way through each side to open it up a little. It was a very tight fit with lots of press pressure and is still pretty tight after pressing through though. Any tips or corrections for me to use to restart the process of pressing in the caps with the crosses? I had assumed I would be able to press these in with my hands or a little more force and this feels all wrong. I don't want to bend another yoke and think I will have to fab a spacer to keep them open while I press the caps but again, I must be doing something wrong. I tried heating the yoke and freezing the cap but doesn't help enough. it is almost like I am used imperial dimensioned parts with metric holes or vise versa.

No offense, but I believe that you are not quite understanding how this is done. You should not be having the trouble that you have described.

I think that you should start all over with the correct parts... or, purchase a good complete universal drive shaft all ready to go.

I read about tapping with a hammer to free the assembly after it is together.
Yes... this is "relaxing" the bearing cross caps in their respective bores. Very easy and quick to do.


With how tight these are fitting that is not going to move a thing, which makes me think that the joint will not adjust/seat/move correctly and bind.
Again.... if your bearing cross cap bores require the external clips, the 5-1306X is not the correct bearing cross. The 5-1306X bearing cross caps are internally clipped.

The two will NOT interchange!

Help!

BTW, despite the current challenge I am glad I chose to replace the crosses. The old ones definitely had wear marks, just as Rick describes, they are localized. I will post a picture later so people can see.

DH

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DonnyH said:

thanks for quick response Rick. I think I need to order assembly from you and will email for details.

What would be the reasons the old crosses were so difficult to remove? After the clips were removed it took a lot of pressure, way more than a brass hammer.

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RicardoMarine said:

1.... Rust and corrosion from moisture within the bellows area.
2.... A twisted assembly will cause friction at the caps/bores.

If I have a tough one, I apply heat to the cap bosses. Heat will ever so slightly expand the metal.
Also, moving the cap back and forth a bit helps as well.
I begin by moving one cap inwards, allowing the oposite trunion to push the oposite cap out of it's bore some.
If need be, you can reverse this a short distance, and then repeat again in the original direction.
Between movements, apply penetrating oil to the bores.


.

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