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I AM STUMPED 225 Ocean Pro hard to start then runs fine

S

snooknreds2

New member
"Hello I am new to this board

"Hello I am new to this board and I apologize for this being my first post. I was referred here by some one on microskiff.com. I have a 1996 225 Evinrude Ocean pro (not on a microskiff) that I need help with. I am a mechanically inclined person with basic knowledge of motors but not sure where to go with this one.

For ease I will just copy and past my other post from microskiff.com

Thank you in advance for your help and thoughts!!

"So I have recently bought a new boat, definitely not a microskiff... It is a 23 foot Rabolo with a 225 Evinrude Ocean Pro. The motor has spark on all 6 cylinders as well as good compression on all 6 (110 on 5 of them and ~107 on the bottom port cylinder)

So got spark, got compression should run right!! Bought the whole rig with out seeing the motor run. Sprayed some starter fluid down the carbs and it came to life for a few bore strokes, everything sounded normal. Has to be a fuel system problem


Got the rig home, cleaned her up and hooked up a 6 gal gas tank with premixed oil. Disconnected the vro system (oil injection system)the way the manual says to do it. Tried to start it and nothing.

Since then I have check the fuel pump, fuel primer, fuel hose routing, recirculation hose routing. All word by word out of the manual and all check out with in spec. The guy told me that he had rebuilt the carbs so I have a feeling it has something to do with that, but I am stumped, short of taking all 6 carbs apart. But if you remember I suck at tuning carbs. I can rebuild them, get them roughly runing, can not fine tune to save my life. And that is with just one, this motor has 6!!

Any bright ideas here? The motor looks clean as a whistle. The carbs on this motor are made of plastic and supposedly dont gum up according to the guy I bought the rig from Shocked

any questions or info that I forgot feel free to ask. I am stumped here. Even went through the "fuel system trouble check chart" and pretty much checked everything off that they list as a possibility.

I really dont want to take this thing to a mechanic, not even because the money. I feel I should be able to do this... I just am asking for a little brain stimulus Smiley
Any suggestions are welcome... "

Next Post...
"I know I have spark and compression on all 6 cylinders, so it has to be a fuel issue. I have tried everything that I can think of short of rebuilding the carbs and testing the vacuum system.

Last night, I tried one more thing. I realized that all the pictures in the shop manual have a big plastic cover over the carbs, mine doesn't Shocked So I took off my shirt and folded it into a square, covered the carbs, had the wife turn the key and VVRRRMMMMMM Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
So could it just be that I am missing the plastic plate and there is not enough back pressure on the carb side? Or My intuition tells me this is where checking the vacuum system comes into play Undecided

Compression check (which you've done)
check

Vacuum check (to verify intake vacuum integrity...no air leaks)
on my list of things to do, timing just was not right until now, will do this today!!!

Replace all filters in fuel system
check

Check fuel pump pressure (if bad replace pump)
check

Replace all spark plugs, set gap per specs
check

Check spark intensity with a spark gap tester
check

Check/adjust ignition timing
I am a scared chicken

Replace water pump and housing
Lets get it running first

Drain and refill lower unit (replace screw seals)
Lets get it running first

Change crankcase oil and filter (4 stroke)
NA

Grease all zerk fittings
check

Rebuild carbs, and synchronize the linkages.
I am a scared chicken

Check quality of fuel in tank (water or dirt contamination)
check

Replace fuel lines
check

I am still stuck, one step closer but still do not know what the problem is. What does the shirt over the carbs and it fires up tell you? Do you think it is the vacuum system or just the stupid plastic cover? To me the cover should not make that big of difference right?"

A friendly response...
Runs better with the carbs covered in shirt. Smiley (that'd be a neat bumper sticker)

Which means that she'll run choked.
Sounds like an air leak on the intake side, too much air, not enough fuel.
You said previous owner did a carb job, sounds like on reassembly something was left loose or off.

Last nights post

OK so other things have been in the way of working on this but here is where I am at.

Pulled off one of the 6 carbs and took it apart. Everything seemed clean and normal. There is a high speed orifice and a intermediate orifice, then a low speed jet. I dont think the guy could mess it up, pretty intuitive.
I did notice that on the side plate of all 6 carbs the gasket looked kinda warped. Seems to be flat in the area that is sandwiched between the throtle body and the plate but warped out side of it... like this:

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So to recap:
Motor will run but have to use the shirt method to get it started the first time

Once started once, you can turn it off and come back a min or so latter and restart. Have not tried an extended period of time between starts yet.

Once running, motor bogs out if I gas it

Checked one of 6 carbs and it looks clean

SO... I would think it was a choke issue, but the fact that it bogs out when I give it gas contradicts that thought and says carbs are not tuned right. There is only the one low speed adjustment, everything else is a fixed orifice and can not be adjusted.

I dont know enough about carbs to not hate them at this point :D"
 
"Well, I'm not an expert o

"Well, I'm not an expert on that engine, but i know those gaskets (used on other engines) and they appear to be tightened. (could be part of the cause of the issue).

Bogging out when accellerating a 2 stroke is usually a sign of being lean. Spraying some fuel mix into the carb at idle or best in gear in water can tell you which one is lean as the engine will race up a bit.. If it's rich enough it will load up or bog down."
 
"when you say spray some fuel

"when you say spray some fuel mix into the carb do you mean starter fluid or gas/oil mixture?

Wouldn't the engine rev up a bit on every carb you do it on, you are just adding gas?"
 
"Gas/oil Mix .. Starting Fluid

"Gas/oil Mix .. Starting Fluid isn't a good idea, I've heard that's its not really good for engines (from my grandfather to other engine experts on this forum)

The engine wont rev up when spraying fuel in because you aren't adding air thereby causing the current air/fuel to richen which if too much will cause the cylinder to flood and kill the spark.

Just like richening a carb by it's idle mixture adjustment, to much and it goes rough, same thing with too lean (which will raise the RPMS a bit) before it coughs and dies.

Sometimes if the idle jets are plugged causing a lean condition you can rev the engine by the throttle plates and put a rag quickly over a carb opening while revved can sometimes Clear the restriction, but doesn't always work, kinda 25% of the time."
 
"of course what I suggest you

"of course what I suggest you should and will make your own decission, and is for nothing more then to give you ideas, they could be wrong, definately seek other opinions.

ps i'm not an expert but I have worked on many older pre-99 Outboards Merc, E/J, Chrysler and OMC, Yamaha, VP and Mercruiser I/O's amd Inboards for the past 8+ years, and have learned much from a old outboard mechanic that has over 20 years exp.

hopefully someone with exp with your engine chimes in, they're on here, you can PM - private message them - e-mail them too.."
 
"if u have good comp,and spark

"if u have good comp,and spark,...NO WTR IN FUEL,....i'd go to fuel system,...he rebuilt the carbs when,..1.5 yrs ago,..one does'nt know,...try pumping primer bulb next time out,...but,..i ...would go into ea and every carb,...then,suspect an anti syphon valve,sticking primer bulb(rare),or def fuel pump.."
 
"Check that the primer solenoi

"Check that the primer solenoid is working properly when you push in the key (ign ON). Not only that it 'pumps' out of the solenoid, but that it even goes through the nipples in the intake manifold!"
 
"This may be a fuel related is

"This may be a fuel related issue but if you've run through the system and done all your checks you may want to test the Timer Base (under the flywheel & stator).
My 88' 225 had similar symptoms. Was really hard starting but once it did and was warm it would run fine. Finally ran tests on the stator and timer base. It was a faulty timer base. Now I pump the ball press the primer for a five count, turn the key and she's running."
 
I just bought the carb rebuild

I just bought the carb rebuild kits today and plan on rebuilding all six latter tonight. I will report back and let you know how everything goes.

Thank all of you for your advice and thoughts. I am hoping that the carb rebuild will solve the problem but if not the stator and timer base. Actually on second thought I might run those test before I go ripping apart the carbs
 
"Hi Jason,
I think you need t

"Hi Jason,
I think you need to get your hands on the airbox cover. The hi-perf guys I know pull the airbox to let the engine breathe better, but they have to jet out the mains considerably to avoid leaning out the motor at power. The airbox also serves as an accelerator pump by building up a little vacuum in the carbs as the throttle is opened. This pulls additional fuel up the jets until the air starts flowing and the vacuum diminishes.

As for your starting difficulties, I'd make sure the primer is working properly. if you can choke it with a shirt to get it started, there is no reason it shouldn't start with the primer dumping gas down the manifold.

I don't mean to insult... but not sure how familiar with outboards you are.... The correct starting procedure would be to advance the throttle slighly, turn the key to start and push in to prime until it starts. Some of the more cold blooded engines might require you to push the key in once or twice more to keep it running. Once running smoothly, drop the throttle to idle and go boating. Some engines have "Quikstart" that advanced the throttle automatically for a cold engine."
 
"I have the same motor..
I sk

"I have the same motor..
I skimmed your first post, and I saw a couple of things that you need to watch out for.
I see that you have already used starting fluid.
I seriously warn you>>> The ether based starting fluid will "craze" the inside of the plastic carb venturis. This causes a disruption in the normal pressure difference between the front of the carb and the back of the carb. The cylinder WILL run lean if the venturi is "crazed".

You better check the venturi throats on the carbs you sprayed starting fluid in...

Just a warning. (Hi Chris!)"
 
"I only used the starter fluid

"I only used the starter fluid for two squirts before I bought the rig to hear it make a few bore strokes. I hear what the other guy said about a stupid move to buy the motor without seeing it run but on the other hand what does a motor need to run?

GOOD Spark on every piston
The spark to be at the right time on every piston
Compression on every cylinder
gas and air at the right ratio

So my logic is this...
As long as the motor has spark on all 6 cylinders and has good compression on all 6 cylinders, use the starter fluid to here it make a few good bore strokes and listen for anything out of the ordinary. If nothing it has everything it needs to run except the proper fuel/air ratio.

I lay no claim to being a motor guru, I feel confident with my purchase but PLEASE DO let me know if my logic is wrong???"
 
"Jason,
I understand your thi

"Jason,
I understand your thinking...just a quick squirt to see if it fires...pops over...I totally understand.

BUT!!!

I did the same thing, with the exact same intentions...to see if I had spark. I was checking for a "no start" issue and wanted to see if she would pop.

I sprayed one or two shots of ether based starting fluid into #1 to see if it would fire. No fire.
So, fixed it, ran it very little for the next two years...it was basically just stored.

Anyway, got it out, and 12 heavy running hours later, #1 piston had a wicked hole in it.

In doing my autopsy, and realizing that the failure was caused by running it lean, I noticed that the #1 carb venturi was crazed...crazed from the ether I sprayed into it two years earlier...
Also, to those with this question...no the carbs were absolutely clean, no gum, varnish, etc. I still have the carb, by the way. The only defect was the crazing.

Why does a crazed venturi cause lean running? It is the same concept as ice on an airplane wing. The ice causes a disruption of the normal airflow over the wing, and results in the pressure difference between top and bottom of the wing to be "wrong". Wing stalls, plane crashes.

Essentially the same with the crazed venturi. The pressure diff between the front of the carb and the back of the carb is "wrong" because of the turbulence caused by the crazing. It therefore draws less fuel up from the float bowl, and runs lean.

Please, just put your finger in the carb throats that you sprayed the starting fluid in, and feel for roughness or crazing. It should be as smooth as glass. Just check it. Then get on with fixing the issue at hand.

I just want to save you a blown powerhead."
 
"Doug thank you for the inform

"Doug thank you for the information... Truly priceless!!!

When you say "craze" Does that just mean pitting in the plastic throat of the carb?

I just went and looked at the three carbs that I had pulled off the port side of the motor last night. Running my finger around the throat I found no pitting that was noticeable. Maybe in one spot on one carb just barely to the point where I am not even sure it is there. I hope that these are all good!!!

I never got around to rebuilding the carbs last night. Instead I had painted the counsel and fixed up a couple other things. After staying up till 4 am and getting back up at 10 everyday for the last week I needed a good nights rest, so the carbs had to wait till today."
 
"Crazing...like when you paint

"Crazing...like when you paint something without removing all the surface contaminants, like oil, and the paint wrinkles.
Wrinkling of the plastic surface like a spider web sort of.
I am glad that you have not created a problem with the use of the starting fluid.

I am sure my problem was because it was ether based. Good to go...

Hope someone here can pinpoint the exact issue for your motor woes...and get you on the water again."
 
"I'm with Mort. I had an

"I'm with Mort. I had an identical problem with my old 200 venom a few years ago because of a broken wire from the ignition switch. The solenoid wasn't working when pushing in the key. It took forever to get it fired up with the broken wire, but once it was going it would purr all day. Fixed the wire and it fired up in two seconds every time."
 
"OK so I know it took me forev

"OK so I know it took me forever to get back on here and give an update, but here it is...

Since my last post I have rebuilt the carbs 3 times, one of which was with a mechanic helping me, so I am pretty sure that is not the problem, although I personally can not guarantee that the floats are sitting right.

I have bought another set of carbs for this motor, rebuilt those, again with the help of a mechanic, and put them on.

I have replaced all fuel lines in the system

The motor still will not run right.

When I first start it the idel seams a little higher, it then drops down into the 1000 rpm range and idles good for a few seconds. Then it kinda hick ups, drops down in revs and dies. I will try to post a video of it latter.

I am so frustrated with this thing that I think I will just take it to a shop and pay some outrageous price to have some one fix it!!"
 
"What about just a plain good

"What about just a plain good old bad fuel pump??? man I have had tons of fuel issues with my motor (still have some, it smokes like a coal train), Dough knows it, frustration is inevitable, but once you start to see the fruit of your work it becomes a lot of fun, and you will be happy the local shop/dealer did not rape you... and you get to know your motor better..."
 
"Doug I got your email and wil

"Doug I got your email and will think about your offer, not sure if I want to do that yet B/C the trailer is not registered yet, but it is an option...

NickNack, I know what you are saying and believe me I do not want to pay some one to fix this thing. I just have put way to much time into trying to figure out what this issue is. My wife and I own our own business and our busy season is coming up. I have yet to even take this boat for a ride since I bought it almost 2 months ago!!!

Supposedly there is someone coming over latter tonight to help me with it, but we will see if they show up...
Few more things I want to check before I pay some one...

Oh by the way I replaced every hose that goes from the fuel rail to each individual carb, along with all the other fuel lines that are in the motor. Lastly I have resorted back to the 6 gal fuel tank for now..."
 
"I think you need that airbox

"I think you need that airbox to run it properly,,

btw, turbulence in the carb is due to aeroelastic seperation, same as when an airfoil stalls."
 
"Gerard, I agree that to prope

"Gerard, I agree that to properly tune that motor I need the airbox, even says so right in the manual..LOL
Problem is I am not to that point. The motor keep just turning off after idling for a few seconds.

As far as the turbulence in the carb... Can you explain what you mean by "aeroelastic separation"? I am not an aerospace engineer, but somewhat close to it
wink.gif


Off the top of my head I would think...Aero-elastic separation

OK well "Aero-elastic" Aero is dealing with the dynamics of air and elastic means that a material is not strained beyond its elastic deformation limit, hence it returns to its original shape once the stress is released from it.
Separation, well that is a pretty obvious one, I think... Separation to me is the occurrence of a non-lamiar flow.

So.. Aero-elastic separation I would think would be the elastic deformation of a material due to the stress of a aerodynamic force?

So are you saying that the carbs actually deform due to the pressure difference? Or are you just saying that by having the "scratches" in the carb throat that it disrupts the airflow and creates a non-lamiar flow. Which in turn increases the boundary layer, and in turn slows the over all flow. (I know not always, sometimes an increased boundary layer actually causes the slow moving partials next to the "wing" to mix with the faster moving free stream air and causes them to mix, in turn speeding up the boundary layer)
But on the other hand that would cause the motor to run rich not lean, or am I not thinking about this right??

i know the above conversation will not help me get the motor running, but it is important for me to understand the "scratches" in these carbs and if it is an issue to look out for."
 
"OK so I called to my local sh

"OK so I called to my local shop today planning to take the boat in to have it looked at. They told me it would not be until next Monday that I could bring it in, so I will wait...
BUT, I happen to look at the manual one last time and reminded my self, on accident, how simple this has to be. There are only so many components to this fuel system, so this Sunday I will do a few more test. There are a few things I have not tested yet. Such as a vacuum test with the motor running, I dont think it will stay running long enough plus the manual says to run the motor at full throttle for at least two minutes. I also have not checked the pule limiter, or the vacuum switch.

Does any one have the shop manual for 1997, it should be kind of a blue color. The one I have is for a 96 and more of a grey color. Basically the same but I noticed a few things different when it comes to the fuel system checks. Such as the fuel primer solenoid is a little bit different looking. That being said, for an 96 it says the resistance between the two wires should be 5.5 ohms +/- 1.5 ohms... mine is 4.5 so I would think it is good but wanted to confirm the same resistance range was given for the 1997?

Also the biggest thing is that in the very begging of the "testing fuel system" section it shows the shifter and fuel lines coming out of the front of the motor on the port side. Where as my motor has a rigging tube that goes into the starboard side of the motor. Basically the same thing, but just something that caught my eye, and made me wonder if all the procedures are EXACTLY the same. In my book I am looking at section 2 starting on 2-8.

Any help would be great... I have not given up on this thing yet, I know it is something I can figure out, I just need to keep up my motivation and not get overly discouraged. There are only so many thing to these motors that could be causing this issue.

I still need to check the timer base as you guys have suggested , I just can not find the procedure any where in the manual that I have, any suggestions?
sad.gif
"
 
"Jason you got it right on the

"Jason you got it right on the aeroelastic seperation, it ruins the smooth airflow and you also lose vacuum from the venturi.
But no, the carbs don't deform physically, its just the flow that deforms.
On an airfoil lift would be lost and the airfoil would start to stall.

Mine is an optical ignition so I don't have a timer base thingy.

Lets get back to low tech troubleshootin,
You can get it to fire by choking all the carbs but it soon quits, so put a timing light on the wires and see if the ignition is failing after a few revolutions.
And if you can get the engine to begin firing try keeping it running by spraying fuel into the carbs.

And when you checked spark, did you set the gap to 7/16th inch? bright blue snap?

Try starting it in the dark and have someone look for sparks jumping to ground, should be easy to spot in the dark.

If the problem is fuel flow then you should definately be able to keep it running by spraying premix into the throats, it will splutter but run.

If the problem is ignition the timing light should show that, especially if you crank it immediately after it quits."
 
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