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Embarrassed Mechanic need help

200toncapt

Member
I have twin 270's (1000 hrs)in my 86 Sea Ray 300. We bought the boat in the fall 3 years ago, made a 50 mile run back to our dock with everything running great- both engines turning 4300 rpm - 40 mph- it was time for fall lay-up so we pulled her out the next day.
over the winter I replaced all the dash gages, installed "FlowScan", and swapped out the original point ign. for " Delco HEI" . When we launched in the spring the starboard engine
would not turn up over 3900 rpm ? I re-checked the the firring order, everything looks good.
Noticed a clicking noise coming from the anti siphon fitting on the fuel tank, found it to be
a bad fuel pump. Started swapping parts- carb,coil,rotor.dist.cap, dist.assembly, changed
plugs & wires. Both motors are timed exactly the same with the same max spark advance. New fuel filters all the way around. Another marine mechanic said I was 1 tooth
off on the distributor ? If it's timed correctly how could I be one tooth off ? I've been a marine
mechanic for over 20 years and re-built my share of motors and installed my share of distributors with never a problem I just glad this isn't a customers boat !
not to mention my wife - giving me the old " I told you not to touch it" // Help - any- ideas ??????

Never approach anything faster than your willing to hit it".<
 
You are correct: It's not off a tooth if the timing is spot on.

I suspect you have either a sticking spark advance (common problem due to the harsh marine environment) or a bad wire/ plug.

Note that marine engines live a far more severe life than car/ truck engines, for boats are 'going uphill' all the tme (and it's a steep hill!)

Hang in there land lubber! You'll figure it out, and the wife will have to apologize. (Well, we know they never do THAT, but....)

Jeff
 
1.... You are correct: It's not off a tooth if the timing is spot on.

2.... I suspect you have either a sticking spark advance (common problem due to the harsh marine environment) or a bad wire/ plug.

3... Note that marine engines live a far more severe life than car/ truck engines, for boats are 'going uphill' all the tme (and it's a steep hill!)
1.... I'd have to agree with Jeff. One tooth off on the distributor/cam gear would not cause this. The mechanic is not thinking this through completely!
BASE Advance is a result of the distributor housing position when locked down........, and the progressive and Total Advance is a result of distributor function after that.
You could actually install the distributor in as many index fashions as there are teeth on the distributor/cam gear.
As long as the plug wires were indexed into the cap correctly, the spark plugs and engine won't know the difference. :)



2... Jeff, I read where these are new HEI ignition systems. 200toncapt (the OP) says; Delco HEI
If I'm correct, the Delco HEI is available in mechanical advance and/or EST.
200toncapt, which did you purchase? EST or Mechanical advance HEI?

Chris and I were just talking about EST systems and knock sensors picking up on other than a Detonation knock. He went on to tell me that he's seen a knock sensor pick up on a bad gimbal bearing, and then send that signal to the controller, which in turn cut back on TA.
If I understand this correctly, it may be possible that one could also pick up on a bad universal joint system, and perhaps something else (key word "may"). This would only be if your HEI was EST w/ a knock sensor. Not mechanical advance.
But if so...... looking at TA numbers while under NO LOAD, may not reveal what's actually occuring while under load... such as what you describe with the now lower RPM on your Stbd Engine! (i.e., Stbd Engine system cutting back on TA resulting in lower RPM)
Just a thought!

3... and the hill never ends! :D


200toncapt, just as with the P of E (process of elimination) when trouble-shooting, we check/change out one item, and one item only, and then test for results. It may be possible that you over-looked something in the process of making all of these changes at one time, rather than one at a time.
With 20 years experience, I certainly understand that we often deviate from this. But once in while it can come back and kick us in the behind!


As for timing marks as per Chris, it's a shame that all Marine Engines do not come from the factory with the harmonic balancers engraved and marked off permanently so we can check TA dynamically. Many of the high performance engines do.
I'm not a tremendous fan of using the digitally advancing timing lights. I prefer to see the advance in Real Degrees/Real Time.... but that's just me I suppose.


.
 
So, WOT taxes it all to the max. Fuel flow, ignition timing, cooling. A pro might put on a fuel pressure gauge, at the carb, and measure at WOT. THat clears or indicts the fuel system. New filters are nice, were the gaskets greased before the install? As noted before, the reverse rotation timing marks can be tricky.
 
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I've checked the timing advance at w.o.t. both engines are exactly the same. Pulled plug wires off one by one looking for a weak or dead one, even turned the distributer to see if it needed more advance nothing has worked. I use a "Snap-On" digital timing advance light.
It's a I.B. with a B & W trans.w/ new flex plates, no knock sensor.
compression is good at 145-150 , throttle butterfly's are standing on end.
All parts swapped out one at a time.
 
I've checked the timing advance at w.o.t. both engines are exactly the same. Pulled plug wires off one by one looking for a weak or dead one, even turned the distributer to see if it needed more advance nothing has worked. I use a "Snap-On" digital timing advance light.
It's a I.B. with a B & W trans.w/ new flex plates, no knock sensor.
compression is good at 145-150 , throttle butterfly's are standing on end.
All parts swapped out one at a time.

Is your Sb engine counter rotation. If yes the timing marks will not be the same.
 
Fuel pump is new, I spliced a short piece of clear fuel line at the carb to look for air bubbles, it's flowing clear. Timing is advancing to 28' at about 2800 rpm's and is exactly the same as the port. I'm thinking now that the FlowScan in line sender might be bad limiting the volume of flow. It dos show 10-15% higher G.P.H. but at the pump, each side is within 2-3 gallons depending how much water we have on board causing a slight list.
 
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Props are clear, water flow pattern on all 6 blades are the same - no vibration, fuel pump is new, old pump* new pump / same problem.
 
Could be some crud is piled up at the FloScan flowmeter. There's a screen there that might have caught something.

Jeff

PS: Higher than accurate flow readings means air is being sucked in before the flowmeter.
 
That was one of the first things I checked when I changed the fuel filter. I also spliced in a piece of clear fuel line down-stream to look for bubbles= all clear flow. I did blow through the sensor and notice that I could easily exceed the rpm capacity of the micro bearings - like spinning up a bearing race with a air blast.
 
Okay. Let's look at it this way:

Timing: Okay. You've beat that to death.

Getting enough fuel? Probably, but you should have sopmeone run the boat while you add a bit of choke (via the outside linkage) to be sure. If it picks up, then slows way down, you have a fuel delivery problem. If it picks up and stays that way, the carb is leaning out on you.

A fouled boat bottom will slow you down BIG time, Land Lubber! Has the boat been in the water a long time and collected a bunch of crud under there?

Jeff
 
All parts swapped out one at a time.
At the risk of being redundant here........, even those of us with years and years of experience, know that doing this may.... key word "may"... lead to problems that are much more difficult to diagnose later on.
And Ole Murphy is right there watching us!

This is where I'd normally throw in a joke or two, but I know this has to be bugging the sh!t out of you!

Looks like most has been covered..... fuel, ignition TA, no air restriction, no change to hull or props, etc...., and of the items that were NOT touched, in theory there should be no change to them.
So, not sure what else to suggest!

.
 
is 28 degrees the max advance of the ignition timing? I bet the engine will produce more power with more advance. I've never seen a mechanically advancing version of the ESt setup - its "all in the module", and on an 86, there's no computer to retard it. The other question is this - are you using the 'timing plug" correctly, so the advancing mode is enabled?
 
Mark I tried to get more info on the ignition systems from him, but all I got was Delco HEI.
The Delco HEI is avaiable in EST as well as mechanical. So unless a model number is posted, we don't really know which he has.

Timing is advancing to 28' at about 2800 rpm's and is exactly the same as the port....... no knock sensor.
In 1986, I don't know for sure what Crusader was doing for their SBC build. But if these are equipped with the full dished pistons, he had better be real careful when it comes to TA.
28* @ 2.8k RPM with the SBC full dished pistons is about the limit before we'll begin to see detonation potential.

On the other side of the coin..... if these will handle 28* @ 2.8k RPM, he's certainly within limits that would make for some performance.


.
 
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Okay. Let's look at it this way:

Timing: Okay. You've beat that to death.

Getting enough fuel? Probably, but you should have someone run the boat while you add a bit of choke (via the outside linkage) to be sure. If it picks up, then slows way down, you have a fuel delivery problem. If it picks up and stays that way, the carb is leaning out on you.

A fouled boat bottom will slow you down BIG time, Land Lubber! Has the boat been in the water a long time and collected a bunch of crud under there?

Jeff

I don't remember or not if I choke it back under way or not, I think I tried that ? I'll try a small squirt bottle of gas under way next along with pulling the fuel flow sensor out of line. // The bottom is clean, bottom painted, and just used for the summer then pulled out. Even if it was fouled I wouldn't think it would loose power only on one side.
 
..."I'll try a small squirt bottle of gas under way "

NO! That's a great way to get blown up! Put a bit of choke on with the linkage (flame arestor still in place) and see if that helps.

But leave that squirt bottle at home, Landlubber!

Jeff
 
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