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Need some good sound advice...

H

hippie

Regular Contributor
Well after a 5-6 week break my helper and I went to the boat. We took the valve covers off and took 1 full turn off all the rockers. Hit the key and the engine turned over ever so slowly but still had the "clicking" of a dead battery. (both batteries show 12.5 volts and we had both on at the same time via our battery switch). Prior to the loosening of the valves it would not turn over at all and actually burnt 3 ground wires when trying to crank it over. Since we really can't turn it over (no nut on front of crank shaft) we can't put #1 cylinder on TDC to install the distributer. Other than that we need to wire the electric starter into the system somehow.

Good sound advice is needed and no hurry- it's been 5 yrs. since the boat ran right and two yrs fooling around with the engine.

Engine is a brand new replacement from Michigan Motorz, a 350 Chevy Mercruiser, 1987, 260 hp, 4 bbl carb. 0 hours on all parts and engine! Thank you, Bob
 
Hey, I forgot to mention that the plugs are all out to ease in cranking and engine was oiled and valves were pumped up. Thanx, Bob
 
not a boat mech. but I thought there was a bolt right on the crank shaft pulley or remove the 3 or 4 bolts holding on the pulley and there is a bolt on the harmonic balancer. that should let you find TDC.

if your burning up neutrals the gauge ( AWG ) is to small.

here is a wiring diagram for the starter. would recommend bringing both batts to full charge.
hope it helps.

http://www.boatfix.com/merc/Techbk/96/96HGD4.PDF

:confused:
 
The original 1987 had the nut ouitside (in front) of the harmonic balancer however this new engine doesn't have that set up. The wiring harness is from the older engine and worked fine 2-3 months ago while still on the older engine. (it cranked the engine over with plugs installed fast as can be). We put the harness on the new engine and the new engine will crank over ever so slowly and that's with the plugs out! That is why we loosened the valves. We rechecked the wiring about 50 times and had friends look at the wiring to see if we overlooked anything. No one can find anything! Thanks for your advice as I appreciate it. Bob
 
12.5V not really that meaningful - you need to measure voltage while cranking - if it drops below 10V, you have battery issues.
Beyond that, your cables/connections may be poor
on top of that, the engine prolly hard to turn over because your valves aren't opening - with all that slack you put in the rockers.
You can turn the engine with the alternator pulley nut if the belts are nice and tight.
 
Jump that battery with you car and make believe your trying to start another car. Still slow turning then your starter may be bad.

Old starter ? Get the new style, uses alot less juice to turn db electrical is where i buy all my starters and alt.

Man Hippie i sorta remember you still don't have it going yet?
 
mftopgun- Nothing proceded this malfunction. It never has been started so it was never hot.

hystat-cables are clean and show 12.5 volts at the starter from the battery. One thing you asked, does the voltmeter show above 10 volts when cranking? Definitely not! It shows 12.5 on each battery individually. If I crank on either battery individually or with the battery selector on "both", the meter drops down as far as it can go. (there is a peg at 8).The instant I turn the key to the crank position it drops that fast that I swear it will bend the needle. Also, making the valves loose by a turn did "loosen" the engine to where it actually cranks over however so slow and without plugs installed. Both batterys were bought 1 yr. ago but could be bad, I have no way to test them.

Chiefalen- You are right, it's me again. I contacted a boat mechanic 5-6 weeks ago who was to fix it "within a few days". Well he has never shown up. So I will continue to work on it until I find what is wrong. Good talking again.
 
maybe you want to pull the outdrive off if it isn't already. If the meter is dropping to 8V and the cables are melting, you have something seized up there.

Try and turn it by hand - if it doesn't turn with the drive off, that engine has to go back.
 
New rebuilds are always a little tight and therefore draw more amps to start them, however, if you're melting wires off, its definitely drawing way too much. I don't fully understand the dropping below 8 volts and still melting wires though. Any batt that falls below 9.6 volts is junk. Like Hystat says, you should be able to turn it over with a wrench on the alt pulley. If it spins in the belt, push the belt in with your thumb as you're pushing the wrench. If it absolutely won't turn over, especially with the plugs out, there must be an internal problem.

"Other than that we need to wire the electric starter into the system somehow." - what does that mean? Are you jury-rigging the starter wiring somehow? Is there a problem in that wiring?

Whack that starter with a hammer when it is trying to crank. Maybe it's starting to seize because it's been sitting too long.

Clean and tight those batt connections. A lot of auto parts stores will test those batts for free. Take them in and see what they say.

Let us know more as you go.

Wrench
 
Wrench- Sorry, I meant to say electric fuel pump. The starter is new as is the fuel pump. When we crank it by the key it turns soooo sloooow. When we melted the black ground wires we were jumping across the starter posts. When jumping across the posts we had somewhat more power (but still not enough) and after only about 5 seconds the wires began to melt about 3 or 4 inches from where their grounding bolts go into the block. On the "run" key position I have good voltage but when it goes to crank, the peg holds it at 8 volts otherwise I'm certain it would drop to "O" volts. The batteries spun the old engine around fine but when we put the new engine in the boat suddenly they went dead in a day or two? It just doesn't sound right. To me it acts like I didn't hook the wires up correctly when I put the harness on the new engine. You men do know more than me so I'll listen to you. I will pull the lower unit off (like when you align the engine) and see what that does. I'll also take the batteries to an Auto Zone and have them checked. Please continue your suggestions. Thank you, Bob
 
I would sure NOT use the front crankshaft bolt for turning this engine over in the normal direction. This is a 7/16" NF bolt intended to have a max of 60 ft lb torque on it.
Use a strap wrench on the balancer, or some other means!

Agree! If replacing the starter motor, go with the HTGR/PMGR unit..... not OEM if OEM was Non-Gear Reduction!
NOTE: even if NEW, we can still have a starter motor issue!

I'd also suggest that if you have installed any battery cables (the pre-made type) from an Auto Parts store, that you toss those, and either make up your own, or have someone make up the correct gage cables..... both POST and NEGATIVE.
A new engine should NOT require anything special to turn it over!

Have a battery shop perform a "Load Test" on your batteries.

hystat makes a good suggestion. My son bought a M/C powered boat years ago. The engine would not turn over due to the upper drive unit being frozen.
 
I agree with Hy and Rick. The drive has to come off. If it's on that is.

Do not use the bolt people who tell you to do that do not realize what would happen if you snap it off.

Turning it by the flywheel is the ticket.

Me i would yank that motor out and split it off the bell housing. Something is not letting it turn, the drive the bell housing the gimbal bearing the shaft not in correct alignment SOMETHING.

You have to go back to go forward sometimes.
 
Chiefalen, if the motor is not aligned properly will that cause it to "bind"? A friend used his alignment tool this spring on the old engine and it was aligned perfect. Then I switched engines and was told since everyting is the same there is no need to realign. I thought that not realigning was somewhat being lazy! Anyway, could this be causing it to "bind up"? Thank you, Bob
 
hippie said:
Chiefalen, if the motor is not aligned properly will that cause it to "bind"? A friend used his alignment tool this spring on the old engine and it was aligned perfect. Then I switched engines and was told since everyting is the same there is no need to realign. I thought that not realigning was somewhat being lazy! Anyway, could this be causing it to "bind up"? Thank you, Bob
Click to expand...
I'm not Chiefalen, but I will suggest to you that an average-to-normal amount of Engine Mis-Alignment is going to wear a coupler......, but is NOT going to bind up an engine!

I'd think that in order for this to occur, the degree of mis-alignment would need to be very severe!

If you have alignment concerns, pulling the drive will allow you to kill two birds with the same stone!

.
 
It`s possible your starter needs to be shimmed. I have seen new starters bolted on GM 350`s and not turn over till starter was shimmed corrrectly.
 
I don't know where you folks are getting your battery information. A fully charged battery should be reading something like 13-plus volts. A battery that falls to 12volts is pretty much dead. If it goes below 11.7 you won't be able to recharge it. At 12.5 the batteries are barely making it. They either need a recharge or replacement if they can't be brought back up. When charging you should be able to measure 14.4 volts across the terminals.
Your battery cables should be big fat 0 or even 00 guage. This allows maximum current flow without heating the cables. Red for pos Yellow for negative. Do not use the automotive type lead battery terminal clamps. They can melt off. Use the studs on your marine battery and use regular nuts (stainless) and throw away the wing nuts.
When you hit the starter and you voltage meter drops to whatever, that means absolutely nothing. You're only concern is the resting voltage and the charge voltage. As long as that remains above 13 volts or so you are in good nick.

A new engine may be a little tight, but with a new starter and fully charged batteries a chevy 350 with the plugs out should whizz around with relatively no resistance just on the starter. If it doesn't then you gotta start working backwards eliminating potential issues, even if it means pulling the engine out.
You can always hook up a battery and starter to an engine that is out to see if it is binding.
 
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o2batsea

I get my batt info from experience. 23 years as a licensed class A auto tech must count for something when it comes to batteries. A sulphated battery will have 17 - 18 volts in it while being charged but is a junk battery. You need to know what it will maintain as it is under load cranking the motor over. 12 volts does not mean a dead battery, in fact it doesn't mean anything. There could be a cracked post internally and your volt meter will show 12v, but as soon as you put a load on it, the volts drops to zero.....9.6 volts while cranking means a dead battery.

"When you hit the starter and you voltage meter drops to whatever, that means absolutely nothing. You're only concern is the resting voltage and the charge voltage. As long as that remains above 13 volts or so you are in good nick." --- I completely disagree, but thats only my opinion.
 
I doubt out friend has a sulphated battery. I suspect he has a problem with his starter motor.
One place he may be going wrong is with the battery selector switch. He writes: (both batteries show 12.5 volts and we had both on at the same time via our battery switch)
As you are certainly aware, the battery switch can be the source of all kinds of electrickery. Suggest that the batteries get a load test first and if found to be viable connect both in parallel for the cranking test, bypassing the 1,2,BOTH,OFF switch entirely. It may be that there is a bad connection or one battery is draining into the other.

>I completely disagree, but thats only my opinion.

OK, but a crap voltage meter that they put in a dash on a boat usually isn't very accurate....more like ballpark. A really big ballpark. I wouldn't base an electrical diagnosis on what my dash gauges told me. Much better to have a multimeter on the posts to see exactly what is happening. A battery with just 12 volts on it, as you must agree, isn't too worthwhile.

>I get my batt info from experience. 23 years as a licensed class A auto tech must count for something when it comes to batteries.

Yes, but you live in Canada.
 
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Rick can reply for me anytime. I wish i knew what he forgot. It's time for Hippie to get off the puter and get to workin on the motor.

So here is my un-educated opinion. I never installed a motor i didn't start on a crate first. And i never will.

First before i pull that motor cause it's in already i would go to a single good battery, verified good cables with good ground and starter connections.

With the plugs out i would try to crank it, it cranks good fine. It cranks slow, i would jump it with a truck. If it is still turning slow then it's time to pull the starter and test it at any auto zone.

The starter test good, i would pull the drive, and install the starter. Try it without the jump with a good battery. Still turns slow say, with no drive on, i would jump it with the truck again, still slow? If yes then it's time to pull the motor, drain the oil, and start tearing it down, someone didn't put that motor together correctly.

That it ! One day of steady work you will know whats what.

Good luck !
 
Chiefalen, I will do what you and the others suggest. We have already checked the cables from the batteries to the starter and they good, verified through the meter (not the dash gauge). We also jumped it off of my F-150 and the same results. None the less, I will get a battery from around here and charge it to the max. I will do all steps as you say to do them. Thank you, Bob
 
hippie said:
Rick, that is what I thought but one never knows. The O.D. is not bound up, it will spin freely. Thank you, Bob
Click to expand...
When you say "spin freely", where are you spinning it? Any drive with a locked up top gear box may spin freely at the prop shaft when in neutral!

o2batsea said:
I don't know where you folks are getting your battery information.
1) A fully charged battery should be reading something like 13-plus volts.

2) A battery that falls to 12volts is pretty much dead. If it goes below 11.7 you won't be able to recharge it.
Click to expand...
1) I respectfully disagree.
Lead-Acid batteries supply about 2.14 volts per cell (12.6 to 12.8 for a 12 volt battery) when fully charged and while at rest after a FULL charge. (Key words.... "at rest"!)
IOW, it is not an accurate means of testing the voltage of a wet cell battery immediately following charging! It must be at rest.... some say of up to six hours +/-!

2) It may depend on how long it has been left in this state of discharge.
Again, the key is to charge, and then test only after a duration of being "at rest"!


We should NOT allow our battery(s) to remain in any sustantial state of discharge for any length of time. IMO, this is when we kill our marine batteries!
Also, (and just an FYI) ... automotive "trickle" chargers should be known as "Battery Killers"!

Here is an intersting web site on Batteries.

.
 
when the engine cranks very slow measure the voltage at the starter connections.

battery volts below 9-10volts bad connectors/wiring corroded .

check to see if the starter gets warm/hot quickly . if so measure the current to starter motor . if the current is low it may mean the starter is in need of repairs.

a 12volt battery at rest should read 12.5 volts with an accurate meter.

if the battery reads at rest after a charge 10.5 volts one cell is defective.


load testing of the battery is required to ensure it can produce several hunderd amps for the testing period.
 
wrench said:
o2batsea

9.6 volts while cranking means a dead battery.

QUOTE]

if you measure at the starter motor you should get 9-10volts. this is the cable/solenoid/connector resistance .

the voltage measured at the battery should not drop any great amount. the condition / capacity of the battery will determine what you get . the more it drops the more it may mean a bad battery or other issues causing extremely high cranking current. like a bad motor, starter binding on the flywheel , amature shorted etc.......
Click to expand...
 
gl115 said:
not a boat mech. but I thought there was a bolt right on the crank shaft pulley or remove the 3 or 4 bolts holding on the pulley and there is a bolt on the harmonic balancer. that should let you find TDC.

if your burning up neutrals the gauge ( AWG ) is to small.

here is a wiring diagram for the starter. would recommend bringing both batts to full charge.
hope it helps.

http://www.boatfix.com/merc/Techbk/96/96HGD4.PDF

:confused:
Click to expand...
hey sorry if gave bad advice about turning engine over with crank bolt, thats how I always have done it with plugs out to find TDC, must be lucky but next time will rethink that.
 
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