Steamed Clams

"The data:

I have 1991 twin

"The data:

I have 1991 twin 350 Crusaders… RWC

Both engine thermostats are 160F
Both engine temp gauges never go above 160F

The stbd engine, when running, has, exhaust water coming out the exhaust pipes almost like a tranquil waterfall.

The port engine, when running, has exhaust water coming out the exhaust pipe as if there were two clowns in the pipes spitting out the water and adding a lot of steam for a cosmic visual effect.

The manifold temps, just prior to the exhaust hoses are;

Stbd engine is 85C
Port Engine (steamer) 95-97C

No mufflers…gotta love that straight through 350 rumble !!!

The plan…..

Start at the Sea cocks to ensure the Raw Water intake is not being obstructed

Check the impellor…although they were both changed, on spec, last year

Check the water pump is getting full belt tension

Not sure here……oil cooler lines???

Last but not least …remove the manifolds and have them professionally cleaned and then put the whole jigsaw back together.

Appreciate any further suggestions/ideas or comments

PS…..Boat is being pulled out today…..it is cool up here north of the 49th "

"Me no think in "C", b

"Me no think in "C", but your exhaust system should stay below 160 ' F, you noise maker you!

Jeff

Here's a link to a video of it in action:

http://s23.photobucket.com/albums/b393/Fastjeff/?action=view&current=LWPAlarm-SlipTest.flv"

"Don: the port system has a re

"Don: the port system has a restriction.

I'd suggest swapping a few things.

check the strainer and the belt.

if okay, pull the hose at the oil cooler outlet and measure the pump's output. (there was a post earlier this year where I added the 'chart' showing GPM vs RPM.) If the flow is good, the cooler's fine and I's suspect the elbow(s) to be clogging. If the flow is low, the cooler needs to be cleaned out. (several posts on how to clean the oil coolers.)"

"Thanks guys... and makomark I

"Thanks guys... and makomark I will follow through with what you suggest and will come back with some answers. The boat is "out" as of this afternoon, and on blocks, but I can still run water to the engines.

PS... This morning -3C...for Jeff = 26.6 F"

"With the bottom paint dry, yo

"With the bottom paint dry, you'll need to be real careful to keep the impeller in the pump wet. I have a customized drywall bucket that's used for winterization: 1.25" hosebarb fastened to the bottom, along an edge, that connects to the hose that gets removed from the seacock's barb. Fill it with fluid and its good to run.

The lack of hydraulic head will lower the pump's output a bit but it should still be within 95% of spec.

If you wind up with something a bit below but close, I have some additional data from sherwood that may shed additional light on things."

"Each engine has a Sea cock an

"Each engine has a Sea cock and each can be turned "off". After the Sea cock is a hose adapter that allows me to run regular city water pressure through the V-drives and to the engine water pump. I put my anti-freeze in the same way, just a big bucket of 60/40 mix that is drawn through a hose that screws into the adaptor and when the engine is run all the "liquid" goes in the entire engine.That adapter also has an "On" off" lever that allows it to be closed.

While out cruising I have a hose that snaps into the adaptor and with the Sea Cock now open,that hose runs to a washdown pump....allows me to use a power washer to clean the boat at a dock or on the "hook".

I'll put up a picture tomorrow."

I love those strainer tops. I

I love those strainer tops. I heard the company that made them went out of business. Does anyone else make them?

"Groco makes an 'adapter&#

"Groco makes an 'adapter' but it threads in, if my memory is still working. They appear of normal groco quality but make the resulting thru hull a lot taller than normal. Figured for that much money, I could spend 5 extra minutes/engine wrestling the hose off in the fall."

"I really do like the idea and

"I really do like the idea and considered brazing a fitting onto the top of the strainer lid. I was afraid of weakening the lid. While it makes winterizing a little bit easier, it also makes it easier to convert to those engine powered pumps in the event of an emergency.

My brothers' friend bought a new 56' Sea Ray that had some kind of fitting failure while he was out in Biscayne Bay and the thing was sinking. He was inshore and they were "ok".

We are offshore a fair amount of time and the thought of it freaks me out a bit."

"I find that one can not edit

"I find that one can not edit a post if it is over 60 minutes old so............

Above,I posted "I'll put up a picture tomorrow"

I am not able to get the pictures today as I have been called away for a few days...maybe early next week I can put up a photo.

DK"

"Quick question as I go out th

"Quick question as I go out the door. I have done a bit of reading about manifolds, how and why they should be cleaned and the possible problems you can have even after they are cleaned. The link is here.
http://www.hotfrog.com.au/Companies/Victorian-Marine-Technology/Exhaust-manifold -and-riser-maintenance-3680

My question is this.My boats' manifolds are about 15 years old, there is no rust on the outside, no leakage and they run only about 5 months of the year in fresh water. Seeing that manifolds are not that expensive, (less than approx $200.00 each) would it be better to scrap the plan of removing them and cleaning them and just replace them with new ones????"

"Regarding the article, rememb

"Regarding the article, remember, the source has a vested interest in the sale of their products!

Overall, I'd agree with most of the contents. Based on my experience, the elbows fail long before the manifolds do, especially the older Crusader versions.

Which way to go - depends upon how thick you wallet is and how much you value "peace of mind". You know 15 years is possible out of what you have. if you can replace the old with similar parts, and can afford it, that's 'cheap insurance' and a preferred state to be in, especially if you have no plans to sell it soon."

"Don, I have 2 454CIDs which w

"Don, I have 2 454CIDs which were put in servce in 1984. The original manifolds are still there. I believe that is 25 years. The only problem I have had with cooling is pumps and impellers. I am on a set of impellers that I installed in 2002 and they seem to be pumping ok. I am in fresh water and I run lake water in and out with no fresh water system.


I have been thinking about changing the cooling system out just because I thought it would be fun then I read of Al's use of the "big hammer". This changed my mind. I will find some other fun activity and wait until it breaks. Hope I don't get water in the engine. Since I am almost 68 I am hoping it last longer than I do. My kids can deal with it then.

Chuck Hanson"

"Hey Chuck...

That BFH &#34

"Hey Chuck...

That BFH " as it was known in these circles" ACTUALLY was the only way those manifolds were going to come off. I believe the saltwater must have had a huge affect on the bolt heads along with other factors like heat and more salt water and years of poor and neglectful maintenance.

Two weeks ago when I actually had one of those engines out of the boat on on the ground, I went around and painted , cleaned and polished stuff I may never get to again....Those NEW bolts 1 season old, already had rust developing on them.

Boy that brings up some tough memories !"

"Here is the update...........

"Here is the update...........I was down at the boat today winterizing the engines and the plumbing. As you may recall I was complaining about "steaming" on the port engine. I carefully looked over the manifolds etc. All risers and elbows are very clean with no rust evident and I didn't seem to get any "gunk" out of either manifold.

I connected my "garden-hose" adapter to the valve above the seacock which was turned off..thus the only water the engine would get would be from the garden hose....turned the hose on. As I walked back to the boat I noticed that the water was flowing quite smoothly out of both exhausts....there was no evidence of "spitting" or "spurting" water.

Cranked up the engine and noticed that the water out the exhaust was not as smooth as it was when the engine was NOT running.

After the engine was warmed up, I drained and changed the oil and filter. While draining the oil, (I use a mini 12V electric pump which is bulkhead mounted and drains the oil from each engine without having to go under the engine...I was holding the pump switch on), I noticed that the belt to the alternator as well as the belt to the engine water pump was quite loose...about 3/4 to 1 inch of play .....yikes..

That would lead me to believe that the loose belt might have an adverse effect on the ability of the engine water pump to put out enough water/pressure and that could be a possible cause of my engine "steaming" while underway.....

It would be nice if that was the case and my manifolds/risers were OK

The photo shows the garden hose hook up to my FWC engine while on shore. The green hose can be removed before the engine and manifolds are drained and then another hose is attached, the engine started and the antifreeze drawn in. antifreezehose attachments

"Don:

Neat setup - thanks f

"Don:

Neat setup - thanks for sharing.

The loose belt is a sure suspect, especially with that much slop.

If your setup is as think, from the picture, I'd be worried about the condition of the pump. The basis is that you have water flowing out the exhaust with the engine off(?). Everytime I've tried to 'push' water thru a known good pump (not spinning), it wouldn't go thru, at least nothing that would create a stream.

When was the last time those pumps were thoroughly inspected?"

"G'evening makomark....

"G'evening makomark....

The impellers were changed in both port and starboard pumps 2 years ago and I did that just on spec. The "used" impellers have been saved as possible emergency spares and they certainly did not require changing.. It should be noted that when I put the water to the starboard engine I had the same conditions,(engine not running),nice smooth flow of water out the exhausts.

As far as the pumps being inspected...they both looked good,(two years ago), ..is there anything specific I should be looking for???"

"I see you're back - safe

"I see you're back - safe trip?

I'd suspect there is a lot of wear some place. if you look at the pump's design, it works by trapping water between the vanes. As they spin onto the cam, the cavity volume is reduced and the water exits. As those almost empty cavities roll OFF the cam, they expand and draw water in thru the inlet port. There is a little bypass notch near the hub to ensure the rest of the pump stays wet (& cool). If you are getting a lot of flow thru the pump with just a hose, something doesn't seem 'tight' to me. The most I've seen come out of mine is a constant trickle, small enough that the surface tension keeps it stuck to the side of the pump and nothing comparable to what the pump produces when running..

I'd defer to Al as I think he just went thru the rebuild the pumps process. In the interim, I'd start with the cover. If you can feel a depression where the impeller rubs, I'd sand it smooth or get another cover. I can't be sure but I believe they have a wear plate in the inside of the housing, if not, check the housing with the cam removed. I've only seen the inside of the housings wear with sand laden water.

the other item is the impeller itself. The sides of the vanes wear as they rub on the housing and the cover. I'd suspect that's the big driver for the recommended annual replacement. The dimensions for the new ones are on the www. I also don't know what the mfg tolerance value is.

Again, going on memory, I believe the edges of the vanes have a rib on them, maybe 0.030" tall. I'm guessing here, but that may be the equivalent of a 'wear indicator' like what is on auto and light truck tires."

"Yup, only a four dayer...seei

"Yup, only a four dayer...seeing my daughter and her husbands first "new" house...nice place certainly better than the first one I ever bought.

Once again..great info !! I have copied your post and put it in my "things to do when I recommission the boat" file. You are correct, the impellers have ribs on them...as I remember and seeing I am going back to the boat,(if the rain holds off),to clean the engine room I'll take a photo of the "used" ones..... if I can find them.....

Based on engine temps while cruising,(160 thermostats), and never getting above 160 on the temp gauges, I would assume that the impellers would be working OK, or just maybe ..... they are close to "expiring"

I will certainly look at the pumps and as a safeguard will get a couple of new impellers for installation in the "spring". Might be putting those impellers in new pumps

Have a nice week and thanks again.."

"I'm in the middle of a re

"I'm in the middle of a rebuild now and can tell you a couple of things. The cam wears to the point where the leading and trailing edges get sharp. The cover I just took off is significantly depressed (worn) in the area where the impeller hits it. Either of which will reduce water flow. I was able to use a steering wheel puller to pull the hub. It wasn't too difficult. It remains to be seen if I can use a 6" C clamp to push it back on. I may have to use the model shop's press here at work. The graphite bushing was also worn, prolly 50 thou of clearance. The major rebuild kits can be had for just over $100, but they don't include the cover, another $50 something. If you look hard enough, the complete pump can be had for $255.

Recent experience also shows that steam forms and gives warning well before the engine goes up in temp. "

"The following are photos of O

"The following are photos of ONE of the impellers that was taken out of one of the 350s. (I keep it as an emergency spare).

The impellers had been in the engines for about 8 years and the only reason I changed them was purely on spec. Engines are run not more than 100-150hours a year...in fresh water, (1000 Islands/Rideau Canal/Trent Canal etc)

My "new" impellers have been in the engines 2 years now.


impeller"">
impeller02"">
impeller03

"Thehy don't look bad for

"Thehy don't look bad for that much time. They do have that "set" which would warrant changing them but as spares they should be fine.

I got the opportunity to get out on the river today, as a guest. Being as nothing was biting, I had some time to ponder pump things a bit.

It may be that a pressurized hose can push the water through a pump without it spinning. This would be due to the slots in the cam allowing the water to flow past the one vane sitting at the top of the cam (worse case positioning). If time permits, I'll inspect the old pump in storage. If the slots in the cam are long enough, then the above scenario is quite possible. If the spacing between the compressed vanes is wide enough (or the inlet and outlet slots are close enough) so that there is only a vane in between, that vane will work like a check valve.

After pondering my past experiences, The attempts to push water thru the pump were always done with the same source. It is an old farm well at the yard we used and probably makes less than 10 psi. More after I check on this one."

"With the discussion about smo

"With the discussion about smooth flowing water through the exhaust system, I have this new question. In all the time I have run the boat, never OVER heating, the water flows out of my transom ports as if it was being spit across the surface of the water. At higher cruise speeds it is the same only more fierce and a longer throw. I have seen many boats where the water exhaust flow is more like a gentle waterfall at low speeds....Why is that?"

"<font color=""ff0000"">I have

"<font color=""ff0000"">I have seen many boats where the water exhaust flow is more like a gentle waterfall at low speeds....Why is that?</font>



<font color=""000000"">I speak only for a RWC cooled engine here....I would assume that the throw of the water is dependent on the speed of the engine and if the engine is at low speed, the water comes out very smoothly...I know mine does when just idle cruising and when I speed up the throw of the water is much further.

I think another consideration would be the size of the inlet seacocks, hoses, and main water pump.

Sound reasonable??</font>"

My BB Chevy will suck down a 5

My BB Chevy will suck down a 5 gal bucket of antifreeze in under a minute. When I'm idling in the the water I have a steady flow coming out of both exhaust outlets. I have an E35 Sherwood pump which was new last year. When I first start my engine it will throw water out the exhaust back about 10 feet I have to warn people if they are standing behind the boat on the dock side.

"Looks like another error to b

"Looks like another error to be corrected - mmine again. Upon inspecting the old sherwood, the slots in the cam are very long and come up close to the high spot in the cam. I could position the impeller so there was only one vane between the inlet and outlet.

With the inlet pressurized by a hose (40+ PSI), it would be easy for the water to flex the vane and escape thru the outlet. I'm sure the flow would not go in the other direction.

Al - I've seen the same thing with "the same engines". The driving factors are the exhaust size and installation. Mufflers will also smooth out the flow, especially at idle. Those flappers will change the appearance of the water exiting, too.

It is the exhaust gas dynamics that move the water (in addition to gravity). More rpms means more exhaust (CFMs) as well as more water. the pipe size doesn't change so the exhaust will exit much faster so the water literally goes along for the ride."

"status report: E35 rebuild c

"status report: E35 rebuild complete. The c clamp trick worked to push the hub back on. The housing had very little wear, unlike the cam and cover. It's last impeller lasted 9 months and 60 hours, I'd be thrilled to get maybe half the life of what Don gets..."

"Well, I did forget about the

"Well, I did forget about the mufflers, mine are baffled too. BUT even my generator spits the water out and my intake hoses are 1 1/2" all around. I never thought much about it until Don mentioned it, then I remembered. I guess the passage route the water takes in a FWC system is longer and more obstructed as well. This is probably backing up support for the part in the manual that says the minimum size exhaust for the 454 is 4"...mine are 4" out of the elbows but stepped down to 3" at the mufflers and out to the transom.

Dave, I dont' understand why it would be so difficult to replace the hub ? This is probably not the rear cover but the front bearing assembly?

Are your operating hours equal? ONCE in a while, I find something mis-categorized on ebay and the item gets very little exposure. The spare E35 I carry was bought for $89.00 brand new. I missed a NEW Westerbeke spare parts kit for my generator for $10.00 a few months ago due to a password change. Cool plastic box and all ..retail is about $190.00"

"Al: I think Dave's "H

"Al: I think Dave's "Hub Issue" is that he doesn't have a press in the garage. I'm glad the c-clamp worked. Yes, you need to pull the hub to make removing the shaft and bearing an easy task.

That exhaust size spec is to ensure acceptable "back pressure" at WOT. If you don't run at WOT, you can get away with smaller ID plumbing. The 3" should be ok if you have 'dual exhausts' on each engine.

I don't think the RWC vs FWC matters when it comes to water flow out the transom exhaust. Same pumps and pretty much the same volume, though the pressure drop would be larger due to the extra path length.

I love those true Ebay bargains."