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Ignition parts for 1990 Crusader 454

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BarryK3

Contributing Member
Hi all,
I have a no start situation with my port engine. It cranks but will not fire at all. There is fuel in the carb bowl (accelerator pump squirts fuel), so I assume there is no spark.
I have the Crusader shop manual and will check the ignition coil and pickup coil resistance values. I will swap in another igntion control module if the other 2 parts are good.
Will an OEM AC Delco module or equivalent work or do I need a marine-specific part? Same question about the igniton coil, do I need the marine specific part? Is there really any difference between standard GM parts and the Crusader/Sierra versions? Does anyone have the part numbers for these?

Thanks,
Barry
 
Thanks for the info. Yes , I guessed that the marine verisons would have different advance curves.
I was able to start the troubleshooting today:
Confirmed no spark with a spark tester. Ignition coil checks out good.
There is 12v to the appropriate wires.
I tried to remove the ignition module and also check the pickup coil resistance but the screws holding the module are badly rusted and I could not move them. I sprayed some penetrating oil on them and I will have another go at it tomorrow. I might need to drill them out. The engine is in a tight spot (V-drive setup) and I'm not sure if there is enough clearance above the engine to remove the distributer completely. Hopefully there is a way to do this if all else fails.
Photo is attached. Advice appreciated.
Thanks,
Barry
 

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BarryK3 said:
Thanks for the info. Yes , I guessed that the marine verisons would have different advance curves. I was able to start the troubleshooting today: Confirmed no spark with a spark tester. Ignition coil checks out good. There is 12v to the appropriate wires. I tried to remove the ignition module and also check the pickup coil resistance but the screws holding the module are badly rusted and I could not move them. I sprayed some penetrating oil on them and I will have another go at it tomorrow. I might need to drill them out. The engine is in a tight spot (V-drive setup) and I'm not sure if there is enough clearance above the engine to remove the distributer completely. Hopefully there is a way to do this if all else fails. Photo is attached. Advice appreciated. Thanks, Barry
Click to expand...


NO guessing, just test.

Clean one of the screws holding the IC module in place and connect a wire from that to a clean spot on the engine (the stud on the rear that has the other ground wires is a good place)- if it starts, you'll need to remove/replace the screws, clean it and try to start the engine. Also, the place where the IC module is mounted grounds to the engine at the base, so make sure that's clean, too.
 
bondo said:
Ayuh,..... I donno what Crusader used for ignition, but I'm sure it wasn't a Chevy automobile ignition,....
Click to expand...
The photo shows part of the GM logo in the plastic. Most manufacturers used OEM parts for ignition & charging, although Mercruiser was big on doing it their own way, like the goofy stator & regulator on the 470 engine.
 
you have the Delco EST (voyager) ignition setup...the base mechanical parts are common across the applications. the pickup coil and the ignition coil are common as well. The modules do have varying part numbers and the marine specific ones are best to use. Many aftermarket modules have had well documented issues regarding the timing curve.

As to freeing up the module retainers..PB Blaster applied and allowed to soak overnight can only help....and so can a heat gun but you need to be very mindful of the gasoline in the carb...

There have been several posts on the Crusader Board that cover parts - numbers and sources - so it may yield dividends spending some time with the search function...
 
There was continuity from the screws to gound. I decided to remove the screws and module due to the severe rust to get better access to the pickup coil connector. The screws came out with considerable difficulty after 24 hrs of soaking with Seafoam Deep Creep. I had to file them a bit so that I could get a vice grip to hold.
So, the resistance of the pickup coil is way above spec, something like 130,000 ohms. Spec is 500-1500 ohms. I ordered a new one. I'll pull the distributor next time since I didn't have the right tool with me to loosen the hold down bolt.
I'm thinking about replacing the module also; can anyone identify this one? It says GM 047 9E20. I'm not sure if Crusader used this back in 1990. The current Crusader ones have different markings. Would a Sierra version be OK? The distributor rotor looks very rusty, I hope that I'll be able to get it apart to replace the pickup coil. It may not be salvageable.
Thanks,
Barry
 

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Reading your posts with interest but I have a question, which has no bearing on your quest for help.:D

Not sure what keyboard you are using but was wondering why ' comes up everytime you want to use an apostrophe ??

Happy New Year and good luck with yolur engine.
 
ELI5: Why do apostrophes appear as ''' on many internet forums after copy/pasting? : explainlikeimfive (******.com)

It has something to do with ASCII code. Maybe becuase I am previewing the post before submitting??

Barry

[FONT=&quot] It's called an "ASCII Code", the "&#__;", where the blanks are two-three numbers is specifically used for HTML, the programming language used for websites.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] ASCII stands for "American Standard Code for Information Exchange". All letters, numbers, and characters have an ASCII code.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Basically, when it comes to programming, certain characters (like apostrophes, ampersands, asterisks, parenthesis, brackets, carrots) have a programming function. In order to display these characters as text and not as programming, we need to use the ASCII equivalent. The ASCII equivalent has no programming function, but when rendered by your internet browser, becomes the character needed. For characters without a programming function (like letters and numbers) there is no need for this.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] So, TL;DR If an apostrophe (') was used instead of the "&#39", it would be treated as an apostrophe in code, not an apostrophe to be displayed, resulting in many possible issues. The ASCII code ensures it cannot be misinterpreted. (For reference, I have to leave the semicolon ";" out after the ASCII code, or it really just puts an apostrophe in, feel free to try it yourself.)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
 
This is I (apostrophe) m: I'm This is I (semicolon) m: I;m This one works: I`m This one works: I,m This one works: I.m I have a pretty standard keybpard and Windows 10 using English US. Engines are easier to understand than these computer bugs!
 
Thanks for the reply....which is really above my paygrade of full comprehension ,:D however I do appreciate the time you took to run out a full explanation. Good luck with the engine, have safe travels and as we all know, technology can be rather trying at times.

[FONT=&quot]The trouble with the Internet is that not everything one reads is true.[/FONT]
Abraham Lincoln (1864)
 
Sounds like the pickup coil is the bad guy.

On the module, the white numbers printed on the case are manufacturing specifics (date code & lot number) and not the part number. You don't have to change it unless proven to be bad. That said, having a spare on board is usually a good thing. My preference is a real GM (Delco) module. Many of the aftermarket parts don't behave well when used in stand alone mode (module controls timing advance, not the ECU). I have not been impressed with Sierra's parts' quality in recent years.
 
Thanks all! I just received a new AC Delco pickup coil. I am waiting for the rain to stop and then I will go to the harbor and remove the distributor. I'm also going to get a new timing light with advance function so I can test the advance at higher RPM. I have the Delco EST advance curve in the Crusader manual.
Barry
 

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FWIW, the plot you showed is ONLY for the MODULE...add the initial timing value (probably 8 - 10 deg BTDC) when checking it.
In my experience, its easiest to set the timing on an EST distributor by setting the max advance (anything over 3600 RPM) and then making sure the engines starts, when hot, with no issues...using the timing jumper can be a major PITA...you can check the timing at idle, with the jumper removed, and you'll likely find the timing a bit 'jumpy'..
 
Thanks for the advice on the timing!

Here is what the disassembled distributor looks like. I think it needs to be replaced. Would anyone try to clean it up and put on a new pickup coil?

IMG_6352.jpgIMG_6351.jpgIMG_6350.jpgIMG_6349.jpg
 
What would you think about spraying the internals of the new distributor with a corrosion inhibitor to prevent this from happening again? Would that affect the pickup coil/reluctor function? Something like CRC, etc.
 
would it prevent corrosion....no, but it would delay it for a little while....one of the corrosion inhibitors would be the best spray-on but you would have to renew it annually. The long term solution would be to disassemble the distributor and have the individual parts electroplated or some similar process.
 
Hi everyone,

Here is a follow up, sorry for the delay.

The problem has been solved. I recieved a replacement distributor from Sierra but I was not happy with it, particularly the gear that meshes with the camshaft. The teeth were somewhat roughly finished and the bevels at the edges of the gear were smaller than OEM. The was also excessive endplay of the shaft/gear up and down. I made the decision to try to repair the original distibutor and sent back the Sierra part. In the attached photo the Sierra gear is on top and the 32 year old OEM gear is on the bottom.

The primary cause of the excessive corrosion was not salt but ozone under the distributor cap. There are 2 large holes in the plate that are covered with screens, I presume to prevent sparks in the closed bilge. Someone had painted the engine with Crusader blue and had obstructed the vent holes; paint and dirt got on the screens. The sparking under that cap ionizes the air and forms ozone. Ozone is very corrosive and causes rust in a very short amount of time. I advise everyone to clean these screens periodically.

https://youtu.be/30f7iYJmIlM

In the automotive world, rust is apparantly common on MSD distributors and they recommend drilling vent holes. I dissassembled the OEM distributor. The pickup coil had an open circuit. I replaced that with a new AC Delco part. A photo of the old coil is attached. I cleaned up the rusty parts pretty well with a wire brush and bench grinder with wire wheel. I cleaned the shaft. I cleaned off all or the blue paint and cleared the vent hole screens. The final result looked pretty good.

So the engine started up fine and I set the timing without too much difficulty. I took the boat for a test run and that motor ran better than it ever has in the 3 years that I have had this old boat. The last time I ran it the rpm would not go over 3000 rpm at full throttle. Now it got up to 4000, the same as the other engine. The heavy old 38 foot Carver got up to almost 30 mph! It probably would have gone to higher rpms if I had given it a longer run.

Thanks for your help!!

Barry
 

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glad to hear you resolved issues.
Only thing I'd suggest is to make sure both engines get maximum timing advance...if they aren't, they won't provide their rated output...and given the hull description, one wouldn't do that willingly...
 
Thank you! I bought another timing light with an advance dial, so I can now check advance at higher rpms. I will check both engines.

Barry
 
I had the same problem with module and pick up coil on stbd distributor. The module was rusted on and I could not get the pick up coil off. I checked all the numbers, and O Rileys auto parts had a whole distributor with pick up coil and module. dropped it in, and the engine fired right up and has been running great for two years. the new distrib has the holes in the bottom with screens and I now make sure they are kept clean.
 
makomark said:
glad to hear you resolved issues.
Only thing I'd suggest is to make sure both engines get maximum timing advance...if they aren't, they won't provide their rated output...and given the hull description, one wouldn't do that willingly...
Click to expand...

Mako, I was under the impression that on a Delco EST setup, the ECU takes over off-idle, and adjusts timing itself thereafter. It sounds like you are saying that the Delco EST setup, with a MEFI ECU may adjust timing up and down thereafter, but it is always dependent on the initial timing. Can you confirm?

I can state for a fact that the marine and auto Delco EST setups are not just similar, they are identical. My former Crusader installed Delco EST, and the A/C Delco EST purchased from O'Rielly, had the exact same part # on the module.

As you suggested, the base timing on the Delco EST is all over the map. I appreciate your suggested advice of checking timing over 3600, and making sure its correct at 3600, and back tracking. What is the total factory timing set to be at at 3600? 34 degrees adv tdc?

Any advice as to what timing should be at 1900? I have a huge issue that kicks in at exactly 1900, where the engine falls on its face, exactly at that RPM. I think it is triggering a safemode condition, but no way to confirm yet. I bought MEFI burn so I can see what is going on. I should have it next week. I also plan to run a constant hot to the fuel pump, to attempt to bypass any "safe mode" condition. It is my understanding that "safe mode" on the Crusader MEFI engines simply restricts fuel pressure over 1900 rpm. A constant hot to the fuel pump should bypass that trigger.
 
The MEFI ECUs adjust the timing based on the programmed curve adjusted for the engine operating condition as sensed by the other input sensors. I've never seen the code so cant say for certain what the dependancies are...That said, I doubt the ECU ever commands a 'negative' value so I'd say the initial timing is probably the lowest value you would see.

On the max advance, the service data I have is for the NON ecu controlled EST distributors...for a big block, it states there is nominally 20 degrees in the module...so adding a 10 degree initial value says you should go for 30 degrees max advance...the early models, with the mallory or prestolite distributors have 24 degrees of advance so they have a 34 degree max timing value.

The timing at 1900 RPM will be adjusted based on the load the engine sees, assuming there's a MEFI ECU driving the EST. whatever it is, it should be fairly constant if the load is constant.

As far as safe mode goes, I've never seen the ECU adjust the fuel pressure to produce that function...its more typical to skip an injector pulse to limit the fuel. I've never seen a MEFI-4 or less that had a fuel pressure sensor so they all have to assume the fuel pressure is constant and at spec value.
 
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