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302 Pops and trys to die at top end ( was "newly overhauled 302 won't start".)

the quick rebuild instructions, from holley, call it the choke qualifying adjustment on a 2300....that said, I am not positive the instructions are 'accurate' for the marine versions...
 
Yes, it looks like that is for a vacuum system, not marine. I did download the Holley instructions. The ones I had are from the re-build kit. There is one called a choke qualifying that may apply. I will print those out and see if I can verify all the settings.
 
I put on the newly refurbished prop and tried starting it up and it fired right up after several days. I turned it off and re-started it several times, and as long as I gave it a good amount of gas it started right up, except one time, where I didn’t give it enough gas, it didn’t start on that first hit and just ground for a while. I had to pump the throttle quite a bit to get it going. If I miss on that initial first hit, it grinds, but give it enough gas on that first hit and it comes to life. So there is still a minor issue there with not enough gas – it shouldn’t just grind. I didn’t do very well on the carburetor adjustments – some I couldn’t get to without taking off the carb, some were confusing and didn’t really match up with my carb, and others I remembered doing when I rebuilt the carb. Do I just need to open up the idle mixture adjustment more? Any ideas?
Not sure if I will get out on Sunday with the fires around the LA area, We are okay.
 
A warm engine shut off for a brief time (5 or 10 minutes) should restart easily without any throttle.
Next time you're out and happily idling, tied to dock in neutral is fine, spray some carb cleaner (with "straw" installed in can nozzle) along the manifold to heads junction & carb mounting but not near top of carb.
You are looking for engine speed to increase anywhere there is a vacuum leak.
Steady speed is good, increase is bad.

Glad to hear fires have stayed away. News depicts it as if the entire state is in ashes.
 
Hi Droid, I used starter fluid instead of carb cleaner, which I believe produces the same results, and the idle didn't change a bit. It didn't start right away, I had just cranked it twice instead of the 3-4 times and it just hit, but didn't start and cranked for a while. I kept pumping the throttle some, but wasn't until I stopped and really pumped it hard 3 times until it started. I let it warm up and did restart it a couple of times with the throttle at idle, and it started right up. I rechecked the vacuum manifold and it was good, aboutr 20 hg/in with some throttle. I also adjusted the idle screws out a bit using the vacuum gauge until the vacuum just started to go down (it was about 17 hg/in at idle) on both sides. It was probably a full turn more open. I restarted it three more times at idle and it started right up. Unless someone has any ideas, I think I should just take it to the ocean and see what happens with that and the possible prop/lower gearcase problem - checking for kelp on the prop if it seems to go out of gear again.
Here is my starting routine:
A new very cold start is best done with 3 or 4 pumps of the throttle to full and back to a throttle setting of about 2000 rpm, or about 40 degrees forward; crank it and it usually stars right up, and bring it down to about 900 rpm and let it warm up to 140 degrees. If it has been several weeks, you may need to crank it first to get gas into the carburator that may have evaporated out and just give it some pumps while it is turning over. A warm start is usually one pump and a fast idle throttle setting of 1000 rpm, about 35 degrees and crank. If it gets to a point of the engine just cranking and not hitting, stop and pump the throttle 3 times, set the throttle back to 40 degrees, or 2000 rpm, and it should start to hit, and keep cranking, maybe another pump as it is hitting, and it should start. Keep it at a fast idle, about 900 rpm for a few minutes until it warms up to about 140 degrees and then you can let it idle with the throttle straight up, which is about 600 rpm. Then you can shift into gear by pushing in the knob at the base of the throttle, push the throttle forward and go. If it dies when you shift into gear, it had not warmed up enough, or the idle may need to be set higher. Outside temperature causes fluctuations.
Sure seems gas starved.
 
how "open" is the choke plate when it is cold - feeler gauge between the down edge and the vertical wall of the airhorn???

any idea how long the choke takes to fully open, from a cold start?
 
Hi Mark, It depends on the temperature out, but the last time I saw it it was close to shut, but not quite. It is usually colder at the ocean, so if it doesn't start right away, it seems to have been more open, so I usually crank it closed more. I am not sure how long it takes to open, but after 4-5 minutes it is warmed up and is usually easier to start. I just started it to impress my grandson, so it is still a bit warm.
I may take it out tomorrow, since where I am working, there is still a mandatory evacuation.
 
There is about an eighth of an inch till totally closed on the butterfly when cold, about 70 degrees ambient. I turned on the ignition and it started opening within a minute and slowly opened up to full in about two minutes - pretty quick! Maybe that's why I had to crank it so far closed at the marina.
Should I cut it back till the buterfly just barely closes? It would just be a click or two from the recommended third click.
I didn't go out today - not even too sure about Sunday.
 
I adjusted it back past the markers to get full closure, and it still opened up to full after 2 1/2 minutes, so I will leave it there.
Will try to make it out tomorrow, or perhaps on Monday if I still can't work.
 
It looks like I have to rebuild the lower outdrive.
I took it out, and first had a hard time starting it. It took about 10 minutes and the more I pumped the throttle, the closer it would come to starting. I pumped it so many times and it finally started. It seems to be un-floodable. It had been about 10 days since I had tried to start it.
I let it warm up and took it out into the bay and upped the throttle on 500 rpm increments. It was doing fine at 2500, but when I bumped it up to 3000 it did the same thing, it reved up and went out of gear. I immediately stopped and tilted the outdrive up and there was nothing in the prop. I had stayed in the shipping lane, so I didn't run into any kelp. I put the outdrive back down and put it in gear and it just reved with no motion. I put it out of gear and back in and still nothing - it would just rev up and go nowhere. So I put my anchor down and called BoatsUS for a tow. I was only about a mile out inside the breakwater. I should have tried reverse and maybe could have backed it to the landing, but didn't think about that till later.
Once back on the trailer, I did take off the prop and it was fine. The marks I made with the sharpie were in-line, so no movement there between the bushing, rubber and prop. Any other possibilities before I start surgery on the outdrive? It is going to be over a thousand bucks just for new coils and spring clutch hubs - I'll probably need a bunch of seals and bearings and such, too. I may take it apart tomorrow.
So one major fail on my sea trial and one minor fail with the starting problem. Any ideas on either.
 
I got the outdrive off and taken apart down to the lower; thats the bearing housing that has the pump, the exhaust housing, which is the backside of the outdrive, and the swivel housing, which is right on top of the lower. The splines look perfect between the bottom section of the driveshaft and part 35. I have had the pump assembly all apart and replaced all the bearings, impeller and other parts that were questionable.last year, so I am not going to open that up. The oil did look to be a milky green in the top and bottom, and of course that will be replaced.
I really think it is the clutch hub spring that has worn out, as it was just like the clutch went out. I will also replace the coils, gaskets, bearings, and anything else that looks worn.
So I am getting ready to take apart the lower next weekend and make a list of parts that need to be replaced.
 
Ok but if I recall the splines fail at the top, #35 to #47. I've owed 5 "Fossil Drives", all electric shift models & never had one ruin the splines. So no 1st hand experience just hearsay.

Did you loose reverse too? Did the engine begin to overheat if you allowed it to idle after failure? Both these symptoms would indicate spline failure.

If I recall, you said the Type C oil was West Marine brand? I've used OMC, Lubrimatic & Sierra. They were all light tan like cooking oil. Water made them look creamy, not green. They would darken some with normal uncontaminated used.
What color was that oil new?
 
OMC used to warn extended operation in reverse may cause overheating because of disturbed water flow across the water intake. So, you would need to monitor temp & shift to neutral periodically to allow cool downs.
 
I can't belive that I didn't check reverse, so I don't know if reverse works - newbie mistake. I could have made it back in reverse. I don't believe the engine overheated, but didn't have it on for long after the fail. I did turn the engine on to flush it out when I got home and put it in forward, and the prop shaft didn't even try to turn - didn't try reverse.
The new West Marine Type C oil is clear green, but the used oil looked creamy green on the upper and lower with about 30 hours on the engine. I remember when I emptied the very old oil the first time that I took apart the drive, it wasn't green, but it was a very milky beige. I will be replacing the seals and gaskets on the lower. So if the oil is milky green top and bottom, does that mean I definitely have water intrusion in both? Don't really want to open up the upper, unless I have to. The exhaust housing seal #38 looked like it wasn't seated well, but don't think it is close to the oil in top or bottom. It is hard to follow the flows through the outdrive: water in, water out, exhaust out...
When I had the upper apart about a year ago, I had those top two sections of the drive shaft apart and they looked fine. The engine only has about 30 hours on it since.
 
Could I put 12 volts on the green (forward) and blue (reverse) wires and ground to the housing and try turning the lower drive shaft?
I could also check the ohms in the coils with a ohmmeter - should be between 4.5 and 6.5.
The magnets in the lower did have quite a bit of metal in them, and I had cleaned them previously.
 
I got the parts cleaned up some and hooked up a battery; red to the blue and green with the black grounded to the frame and twisted the drive shaft and it looks like I have reverse, as the prop shaft twisted when I twisted the drive shaft with the green one energized and not to the blue. I didn't hear anything when I energized them - I was expecting the clunk that you hear when you put it into gear, but it was silent, but did seem to work in reverse. The clunk is probably from the whole drive train. I did see the little spark on each, when I hooked them up, so there is continuity.
I checked the ohms on both with an ammeter and it read 5.4 ohms on both, so the coils are both good (between 4.5 and 6.5). Should I replace them anyway? They are about $200 each. They are about 50 years old. I'll see how they look when I get them out.
There was a lot of metal in the spring magnets, that had been cleaned out when I was in there before, about 30 hours of engine run-time ago.
So I plan to start taking the lower unit apart, unless someone has a better idea.
 
No clunk, springs just sort of pull tight on the gear hub. Fwd should act exactly like reverse but in the opposite direction. Probably broken fwd spring. Ohms tell me coils are good.
 
Yes, I think it is the forward clutch hub spring. Of course it is all the way in the back. I'll see how far I get tomorrow. I bought a slide hammer to get the parts in back out. I hope it fits.
 
I'll spare you my travail, but I finally got the lower opened up and the snap ring off and pulled out the prop shaft with the reverse stuff still on it in tact and looking pretty good. What wasn't so good is when I looked inside, there was the slip ring that holds the forward gear on, just laying there in tact, having fallen off of the prop shaft when I pulled it out. And there was also some shim or washer or something, some kind of plastic, reddish in color and kind of crumpled up, also just laying there between the gears. In looking at the diagram, I am not sure where it came from. It's inside diameter is about an inch and the prop shaft is an inch and a half there and an inch and a quarter at the end. The drive shaft is an inch, but don't see how it got there, unless it was on the bottom of the driveshaft near the locknut for the pinion gear, but i don't see that in the diagram. The shims are above the pinion gear. It had to have slipped off, as it wasn't broken.
The forward gear is showing some wear and it does have one tooth that is pretty damaged. The pinion gear is perhaps just a bit worn on the ends, I believe. The reverse gear looks good. I haven't taken the reverse stuff apart yet. There are some metal flakes around the area.
So, somehow that snap ring on the forward gear came off, and probably acted as an additional spacer holding the forward gear apart, perhaps. This red shim, or whatever had to have slipped off of something, as it did not break apart, still circular, just crumpled a bit. Whada ya think?
My next task is to take the lock nut holding the pinion gear off and take out the drive shaft. Then I can take out the forward stuff and inspect and clean the parts. I may have time tomorrow, if it is still raining here.
 
I have been having a hard time getting the locknut off of the pinion gear to get the crankshaft out. There is less than 1/8th of an inch to grab onto. I have a crescent wrench that locks down like a vice grip, but it always slips off. The nut is starting to get a bit stripped. I cut a 1-1/16 inch socket down and ground down a breaker bar to be able to get it in there and wedged it down against the bolt, but for some reason it is not holding - it is hard to see what is going on in there. I keep grinding down my tools to get a better grab. I took some pictures but they were too big for the server. The locknut looks like it has an extended bottom part that is just round, like a shaft, about an inch in diameter, to extend the threads. I may be able to get a grab on that part with a vice grip. If you have an email address, I could send the pictures.
I also took a picture of that red crumpled up plastic shim or washer that I found after I pulled out the prop shaft. I thought you may recognize what it is. The only place that I can see that it came from would be at the bottom of the driveshaft, which is the bottom part of the lock washer that I have referenced. But there is nothing like that in the exploded view of the lower, but is the only thing around with a 1 inch diameter.
 
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