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1989 Evinrude 200XP

D

drx

Contributing Member
"Long story. Not a good start

"Long story. Not a good start to fishing season.

Purchased this engine new in 1991.
Lost pistons 1 & 2 the 1st time I put it in the water after picking it up from the dealer-new powerhead. After 75 hours same thing due to broken, very worn crank seals. Always use premium oil. Have about 100 hours on it since that rebuild.

Now I am seeing dirty oil accumulating all over the front port side of the engine. It's also under the flywheel and on the stator/timerbase. Can't see any loose or damaged hoses. Just replaced the original VRO pump-noticed fuel squirting out of it when I squeezed the primer bulb first time out this season. I didn't see anything when I revved it up in neutral. But after I took it for a drive I had oil all over again.

Top speed had dropped at least 5 MPH and the boat was slow to plane. Then I developed a weak/no spark issue and it won't start. Stator was replaced maybe 30 hours ago and resistance is within spec on both sides. Will check that out more once my new starter arrives-looks like the armature was in contact with the magnets.

Had trouble verifying compression due to the starter issue. Has always been 85-90 on all cylinders in the past.

Pulled the carbs/leaf plate assemblies. All gaskets look good. Some staining on a couple of leafs of # 1 cylinder(see pic). All the rest look like new.

Any ideas where the oil is coming from? Crank seal? Should I pull the flywheel?

21538.jpg
#1 cylinder
 
"Also wondering what this hose

"Also wondering what this hose is for? It wasn't attached to anything and is not shown in the service manual.

21542.jpg
Cyl # 5-6
 
"Hey Grant...Pop the flywheel

"Hey Grant...Pop the flywheel and see if you can see any problems there..If it is blowing stuff out it, is also sucking air in, and thats a bad thing...! The hose that you mentioned goes to the small brass fitting on the bottom of the air ailencer...."
 
"No offense intended here. On

"No offense intended here. On the loop charged models, that hose is simply an air silencer drain. It should hang straight down."
 
I pulled the flywheel yesterda

I pulled the flywheel yesterday. Crank seal looks like new and the inside of the timer base was dry. Guess I'll just put it back together with new gaskets and see what happens.

The manual recommends a new flywheel nut from what I recall but it doesn't look like a new one was used when I had the stator replaced. Should I get a new one?

Any idea as to why only the 2 leafs on the #1 cylinder assembly are stained while there is no staining for any of the other cylinders?

I think that the block was repaired at the 1-2 crank seal area when it was rebuilt.

Thanks
 
"Grant:

Sorry to say that y

"Grant:

Sorry to say that you may want to check those cranks seals again. See my photo below. From your photos it looks like you already have the intake manifold removed. Take a small piece of wire like a guitar string and see if you can insert it in this area. Also try to squirt some 50:1 premix and see if it runs through. These crank seals have very sharp edges and I made sure that I chamfered mine .020" before installation (thanks Sparky). If you don't so this the crank seals will not move with the thermal expansion of the block and crank.

21665.jpg
"
 
"Hehe, the fuel goes through a

"Hehe, the fuel goes through all of the seals. Isn't there a ring end gap? I think if there was enough seal material missing to get a wire through I would have some cooked pistons in no time, wouldn't I?

Do you mean that the seals don't expand with the block/crank? I don't think I'd want them spinning in the block.

So if I do an exchange for a rebuilt powerhead it's likely to have the same issue with respect to the seals due to no bevels, correct?"
 
"Grant:

Yes you are correct

"Grant:

Yes you are correct that there is an end gap on the crank rings that should be at the front center of the intake manifold. If the fuel got through easliy were you able to try a very thin piece of wire? You won't necessarily "cook" your pistons with bad crank rings but what will happen is the exhaust from cyl#1 for example will contaminate the intake of cyl#2. This will not show up in a compression test either. A guy by the name of Sparky who used to post on here quite a bit gave me the tip about being sure to chamfer the new crank rings. Of course you do not want them to spin but to be able to move freely on an axial plane with thermal expansion/contraction - im talking thousands of an inch. Not many people know about chamfering these crank rings but if you buy new ones you will notice that the edges are razor sharp and will bite into the aluminum and not move. I hate to talk you into opening it up but it is the only way to fully check the condition of these rings. The photo below is what I found on mine. In addition to the one broken ring all of the others were out of spec.

21692.jpg
"
 
"Is that the 1-2 seal that bro

"Is that the 1-2 seal that broke? Same one that broke on mine the last time. The others were all severely worn. Lost both pistons but it was acting up for a while 1st(rough idling). That's what I hate about this, there is no way to tell what is happening inside the engine. Might as well pull it apart. Seems I'm pushing my luck at 100 hours anyway."
 
"I have been following your di

"I have been following your discussion, interesting, but.
To me you seem to be more focused on damages found when opening the engine(s) than what have been causing the damages and the sequences the damages may have hapened.
If you go back in history from when the troubles started the first indication will almost allways be idling problems, and this is actually the best way to test a 2-stroke engine (carburated).
If it does not run smooth in idle there is something wrong!
What do most people then do? They forget the type of engine they are working on and the lubrication system:They rev it up unloaded!!!The only thing this do to an engine is further creating damages. The lubrication is in the fuel, and shutting off fuel (closed carb valve plates) shuts off lubrication, however the engine keeps on for quite some seconds reving thousands of rpm with no lubrication added!Read the first post.
On Bstoerzer's pic the damage is probably caused by water (no lubrication) due to a faulty piston and has nothing to do with the rings itself.
In short:
If the engine starts acting bad in idle and the problem is not corrected properly and quick, further engine dammage is more or less self inflicted and makes the establishing of the original cause of problem more of a guesswork."
 
"Morten:

Thanks for your in

"Morten:

Thanks for your input. While an engineer by title I am certainly no OMC expert here and have really only maintained my personal motors in the past. As I told Grant in my previous post I don't mean to lead him down the wrong path by having him open his motor up and find nothing. His problem just sounds identical to what I was seeing - poor idle - drop off at WOT. IF the compression test, carbs, timing are good then what??? I agree with your statement on the water too - I heard that from my local marina. That is why during my last re-build I removed the VRO and installed a water seperator in the fuel line. I did notice some water - not in the gas - but in the oil tank! Many people said I was wrong to remove the VRO and install a new fuel pump without the VRO but I can assure you I have more piece of mind now at 5500 RPM.
A guy that used to post here Sparkey or SSparkey really helped me troubleshoot my problem and said he believed there was a design flaw on these crank seals and told me how to chamfer them.

I appreciate the discussion points.

Bob Stoerzer"
 
"I tried the wire and was unab

"I tried the wire and was unable to get past any of the seals.

Do the idle jets not provide fuel/oil for lubrication under decel/high vacuum? I recall reading that the replacement VRO pumps have been redesigned to provide more oil at idle than the OE pumps on these engines.

One important thing I forgot to mention is that it also started to idle high before I took it apart. From what I recall, I was was unable to get it any lower than about 1200 RPM."
 
"Pulled the heads today. Here

"Pulled the heads today. Here's what the port side looks like:

21769.jpg
Port
 
I think You need to pull more

I think You need to pull more than the heads to get a correct picture of the situation.
 
"I'm getting there. Strip

"I'm getting there. Stripped the powerhead down today and it is ready to pull. Let's see if it will let me finish posting the pics.

Port again:

21773.jpg
Port2
 
"Is there a trick to removing

"Is there a trick to removing the powerhead or did I miss something? Removed 4 bolts each side, 2 nuts front,1 nut rear center and shift linkage. Don't see anything else. Doesn't want to budge yet. Usually carry my manual back and forth with me but I think I left it at the lake. I'm not going to force anything. Seems to me it should separate more easily than that."
 
"This will probably end up as

"This will probably end up as a'chicken and egg' discussion. However to me it looks like a fuel/oil starvation problem. The problem must have been obvious for quite some time due to the burnt gel-seal at the crankcase/cylinder flange(cranck case combustion).
The 'high idle' mentioned in an earlier post reinforce this, that is what theese engines does just when they run out of fuel.
Even the burn marks on the leaf plate indicates the same.
What exact has caused it is impossible, at least to me, to tell without being at the spot and excamining the parts. but I would suspect somewhere in your fuel system, not necceseary on the engine, but perhaps in the boat you may find an air leak.
Have you tested the vacum valve function?(alarm)
Alternativt checked the plastic fuel manifolds that distributes the fuel to the carbs from he pump for blockage?
Since this is not the first breakdown, I think You should look somewhere in the parts that were not changed at the last breakdown and conentrate less on the internal dammage at the moment. They are probably quite similar to the last ones."
 
"The change in performance has

"The change in performance has been very gradual with the high idle occuring only recently. At first I thought perhaps the boat was holding a lot of water after finding saturated floatation foam. But the high idle only started recently and the boat became very slow to plane. Then I knew something was wrong. I have never felt that performance was as good as when it was brand new(the first 10 minutes anyway) after either rebuild/powerhead replacement. But the dealers/mechanics always assured me that this was normal operation for "these big motors". And that "high maintenance" was also normal for these "big motors"!

If there was a leak in the fuel system before the motor wouldn't that have affected all cylinders? I am referring to the damage not the recent high idle. Do you think that this is the same problem as before or a failure of the previous repair, or both. What causes crankcase combustion?

I recall the mechanic taking the boat out for a drive after the rebuild with the air baffle removed to observe the fuel flow in the carbs.

I did just replace the fuel pump and some fuel line before I took it apart but it didn't make any difference to the high idle. I had noticed that the the pump leaked fuel around the pin that activates the switch when I had someone squeeze the primer bulb.

I am now guessing that the dirty oil on the block may have been coming from that flange area?

I contacted a rebuilder(with pics) who said that he wouldn't use my block but that he has a newer block that would work if he can't find the same one. He also referred me to a local outboard rebuilder. I'll see what they say."
 
"I agree with the rebuilder th

"I agree with the rebuilder that your block is toast, unless you have a very good welder and machine shop in the vicinity!
And yes, I think it is the same problem that caused the previous break down.
Cranck case combustion normally occurs when the engine is lean burning. The combustion is 'slow' and when the ports open it ignites the mix coming up from the cranck case. This does not only burn out/lean the mix for the next cycle, but burns out the oil you need for lubricating the cranck shaft and cranck shaft seal rings! This is normally why some rebuild/new engines may have 'problems' with theese rings, lack of lubrication. Not a question of chafing the rings at assembly. It is normally the first start up that is critical in this aspect, plenty of oil and idle only, until the engine has sealed/tightened up a bit. Takes only some minutes actually!
A leak in the fuel system wil initially affect all cylinders and 'testing' by looking into the carbs is not the right test metode. The problems will normally start in one cylinder and then accelerate in this cylinder. It is too often taken for a 'lokal' problem.
After next rebuild hook up a pessure meeter and monitor the fuel pressure at WOT from the pump into the carbs. Take a small drill bit and be sure the plastic distributing fuel manifolds are open and clean. Make a small invert U in see-trhoug plastic and put in front of the fuel pump, air leaks will show up as bubles on top of the U.
There is no more maintanance necceseary on theese 'big' engines than the small ones, perhaps Your previous mechanic needs a tune up?"
 
PS: Never start a rebuild/new

PS: Never start a rebuild/new engine on muffs. The lack of back pressure in the exhaust system makes the engine run too lean.
 
"A couple more questions. Wha

"A couple more questions. What are the specs on the crank seals? Is rust stain on the block at the head gasket area normal(both sides)? Seems that I first noticed this after the last rebuild. Wasn't sure if it was there prior or not. But it has definitely increased since. When I pulled the heads the gasket material was also stained throughout.

With respect to fuel restriction, the fuel tank in this boat(Ranger 397V) has a concave top with the vent being at the lowest point. So that the vent is sumberged any time the tank is more than half full and air is trapped at either end. Could this be an issue. It does make filling the tank a chore as venting occurs through the fill hose once past half full."
 
"The cranck seals are 'pis

"The cranck seals are 'piston ring specs'. When it comes to rust staines, I noticed the brownish colo, but took it for gasket sealer. The original gaskets however are black and coated without need for sealer. I have never noticed rust in any form on them, they have sst reinforcement. The liner area seems at least to be clean. May it be something in your water in the area, polution, that makes it?
Your vent hose might be an issue, but is Your engine equipped with a vacum alarm? Grey unit hooked into a T-connector on the suction side of the VRO. If not, a very possible reason. If there - have it tested!!!"
 
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