Logo
FULL SITE MENU

2001 Honda bf225 not enough power to plane

Just got home about an hour ago. Took the manifold cover off (IAB) so I could pull out the vst and order a new high pressure pump. Water started coming out as I started loosening screws. Pulled it off and water was running out of the intake manifold. See video. What would cause this?
 
I'm beginning to wonder if there may be a problem with your throttle cable or with the throttle linkage itself. To check and adjust the throttle itself, see the attached.

Hmmm. Not sure that worked. The file may be too big to upload. If you have the helm shop manual, see pages 3-18 to 3-21. If not, send an e-mail to me at [email protected] and ask for the procedure to adjust the throttle.
 
OK. I just saw your last post about water running out of the manifold. That's a new one on me. Let me think about that for a bit.
 
Could that be due to repeated condensation in the intake muffler?

If not that, then the only way I see that water could get into the throttle body is through the air intake on the muffler body. For that to happen, the cover would have had to have been off during a rain or something of that ilk.
 
chawk_man said:
Could that be due to repeated condensation in the intake muffler?

If not that, then the only way I see that water could get into the throttle body is through the air intake on the muffler body. For that to happen, the cover would have had to have been off during a rain or something of that ilk.
Click to expand...
Unless the pisser hose is broken and filling the inside of the cowl up with water?
 
Alan Hicks said:
Unless the pisser hose is broken and filling the inside of the cowl up with water?
Click to expand...
No water anywhere inside the cowl. No wet spots or anything. Just behind the intake manifold. I thought that as well and checked it out. Hooked the motor up to the hose and let it run about 10 minutes and found no leaks anywhere. The motor sits really low and not having enough power to plane could have caused water to get sucked up through the exhaust when coming to a stop. The exhaust has not been changed out via the service bulletin yet.
 
chawk_man said:
Could that be due to repeated condensation in the intake muffler?

If not that, then the only way I see that water could get into the throttle body is through the air intake on the muffler body. For that to happen, the cover would have had to have been off during a rain or something of that ilk.
Click to expand...
No water anywhere inside the cowl. No wet spots or anything. Just behind the intake manifold. I thought that as well and checked it out. Hooked the motor up to the hose and let it run about 10 minutes and found no leaks anywhere. The motor sits really low and not having enough power to plane could have caused water to get sucked up through the exhaust when coming to a stop. The exhaust has not been changed out via the service bulletin yet. When it first started acting up and I took off the IAB, there was no water in there. I was beginning to wonder if the throttle cables could be messed up as well. I didn't dig to far in to it as the problem seemed to happen over night. But I'm at a point where NOTHING can be ruled out. So I'd like to try looking at that. I don't have the shop manual so I'll email you now if your willing to share. Email will be from [email protected] and I will put in the subject: procedure to adjust throttle. Thanks!
 
Stupid question but you didn't pinch the O ring on the high pressure filter housing did you? I did that once and fuel poured out when the engine was running.
New O ring fixed the problem.

Have you checked that he throttle (on the engine) is opening fully also?
 
Did I send you the procedure to check and adjust your throttle cables? I sent it to someone recently, but forgot who that was. It's too big to upload on this site. If you downloaded the shop manual, go to page 3-18 for the procedure to adjust it. Otherwise send an e-mail to me and ask for the procedure to adjust throttle cables. [email protected].
 
chawk_man said:
Did I send you the procedure to check and adjust your throttle cables? I sent it to someone recently, but forgot who that was. It's too big to upload on this site. If you downloaded the shop manual, go to page 3-18 for the procedure to adjust it. Otherwise send an e-mail to me and ask for the procedure to adjust throttle cables. [email protected].
Click to expand...
I got it. Everything checks out on cables. I'm at the lake now after putting a new vst tank and fuel pump in. No change at all. I'm literally at my witts end. New fuel lines, new primer bulb, new plugs, good compression, new spark plugs, no fuel tank vent tube clogged, no pickup line clug, new hp fuel pump screen, new high and low filters, new water seperator, ran on a pony tank with fresh gas, etc. I'm seriously at the lowest point I can be at right now with disappointment. Vacation is next Saturday, I'm $1,500 in and haven't fixed ****. I have no idea where to go now as It can't possibly be a fuel problem now.
 
I feel for you. It's got to be very frustrating. I thought through the whole fuel system and all that you have done to it and cannot find any reasonable explanation except for possibly a bad ECU, but there is no logical way to test that. I did look at the fuel line cut off valve, but even if that is not working properly, it shouldn't keep the engine from reving to speed. See attached.

I'm trying to stand back and think of any other possible causes.

You said that you checked all of the throttle linkages and adjustments per the shop manual and they were all good, correct? Are you absolutely sure that the throttle handle at the helm is going all the way forward and the throttle cable from the helm is pulling the throttle linkage at the engine all the way forward? Did you test/adjust the throttle linkages and pulleys on top of the engine to be sure that they are in spec and none of the cable stops are loose or popped out of their brackets?

Did you replace the fuel line from the primer bulb to the onboard fuel/water separator and made sure there were no obstructions to the fuel line where it enters the engine compartment through that big black grommet or either side of it?
 

Attachments

  • Fuel line cutoff Solonoid Valve purpose.pdf
    511.9 KB · Views: 1
chawk_man said:
I feel for you. It's got to be very frustrating. I thought through the whole fuel system and all that you have done to it and cannot find any reasonable explanation except for possibly a bad ECU, but there is no logical way to test that. I did look at the fuel line cut off valve, but even if that is not working properly, it shouldn't keep the engine from reving to speed. See attached.

I'm trying to stand back and think of any other possible causes.

You said that you checked all of the throttle linkages and adjustments per the shop manual and they were all good, correct? Are you absolutely sure that the throttle handle at the helm is going all the way forward and the throttle cable from the helm is pulling the throttle linkage at the engine all the way forward? Did you test/adjust the throttle linkages and pulleys on top of the engine to be sure that they are in spec and none of the cable stops are loose or popped out of their brackets?

Did you replace the fuel line from the primer bulb to the onboard fuel/water separator and made sure there were no obstructions to the fuel line where it enters the engine compartment through that big black grommet or either side of it?
Click to expand...
I checked the cables and tested the throttle. When I had the intake manifold off, I pushed the throttle lever all the way forward and the butterfly opens all the way up. All fuel hoses that carry fuel have also been replaced. I'm hoping it's not the ecm but if I have to get one then I guess I have to get one
 
Well OK. But are you sure that the throttle lever at the helm is doing that - i.e. opening the butterfly all the way? And when the throttle arm is full forward, is the throttle arm at the engine all the way to the "stop" position? When the helm throttle lever is in the neutral position, does the V mark on the throttle cam line up with the throttle cam roller as explained in the manual? Did you measure and check the cable exposure lengths as explained in the shop manual?

If you do order an ECM, make sure that it is the right one and that you can return it if that is the problem. Those things are really pricey.
 
Before going in on an ECM, have you checked to see if you were down a cylinder or have water in your combustion chambers on one cylinder? In my experience, this doesn't necessarily cause rough running. There may be a little shake at idle, but nothing that would typically alarm me. That water in the intake without water in the cowling anywhere makes me think you have water in the combustion chamber through a bad head gasket or corroded/cracked/warped head. This is an issue I've now seen a couple of times, though I wouldn't expect it since it sounds like you're on freshwater. It can be hard to detect these leaks, and unlike a car engine, you can't just see if your coolant is low since with raw water cooling, you've got unlimited coolant.

It's possible that the water came up the exhaust, but if your exhaust valves are open when the engine shuts down, allowing water into the cylinder from the exhaust, your intake valves were closed when the water entered, preventing water from entering the intake--unless your turn it over after water is already in the cylinder and push the water out the intake on the next stroke.

I would first do a drop test to see if you're totally down a cylinder (and you don't have to really take a ton apart for that, just unplug coils). But because even with water, you can have some combustion sometimes, depending on whether the plug is fouled/how much water, the drop test isn't definitive if you don't see a cylinder down. So if you don't see a cylinder down, I would also do a compression test. When you pull out the plugs, examine them for rust, but again, that's also not definitive. Do the compression test and see if a cylinder is low (it can be as little as 25 lbs lower than the others and leaking, so 175 versus 200). You might also use a borescope through the spark plug hole to see if any of the valves are rusty or there is obvious evidence of water in the cylinder.
 
chawk_man said:
Well OK. But are you sure that the throttle lever at the helm is doing that - i.e. opening the butterfly all the way? And when the throttle arm is full forward, is the throttle arm at the engine all the way to the "stop" position? When the helm throttle lever is in the neutral position, does the V mark on the throttle cam line up with the throttle cam roller as explained in the manual? Did you measure and check the cable exposure lengths as explained in the shop manual?

If you do order an ECM, make sure that it is the right one and that you can return it if that is the problem. Those things are really pricey.
Click to expand...
With the motor off and on the trailer, I can push the throttle lever at the helm all the way down and the butterfly is all the way open everything lines up as it should according to the manual you sent me. I'm on the lake now for a test run again and still no change. I have to believe at this point now it's the ecm. Unfortunately, everything I can find about symptoms of a faulty ecm says stuff like, hard cranking, no spark, motor shutting off, etc. Mine is doing none of that so it socks I'm still pretty confident an ecm won't fix it but I have no other options as Vacation is next weekend and I have to try something. Every fuel line has now been replaced, water separator has been replaced, vst has been replaced, all filters and screens have been replaced, high and low pressure pumps have been replaced, injectors have been replaced, fuel rails and fuel pressure regulator has been replaced, spark plugs and coil packs have been replaced. That's the entire fuel system. Engine compression is good. That to me only leaves electrical. Is there any other electrical component other than the ecm that might be the cause? I'm going to order the ecm but again, symptoms of what I have read are not symptoms I'm having so if there is something else it could be ill get that too
 
wildebeest said:
Before going in on an ECM, have you checked to see if you were down a cylinder or have water in your combustion chambers on one cylinder? In my experience, this doesn't necessarily cause rough running. There may be a little shake at idle, but nothing that would typically alarm me. That water in the intake without water in the cowling anywhere makes me think you have water in the combustion chamber through a bad head gasket or corroded/cracked/warped head. This is an issue I've now seen a couple of times, though I wouldn't expect it since it sounds like you're on freshwater. It can be hard to detect these leaks, and unlike a car engine, you can't just see if your coolant is low since with raw water cooling, you've got unlimited coolant.

It's possible that the water came up the exhaust, but if your exhaust valves are open when the engine shuts down, allowing water into the cylinder from the exhaust, your intake valves were closed when the water entered, preventing water from entering the intake--unless your turn it over after water is already in the cylinder and push the water out the intake on the next stroke.

I would first do a drop test to see if you're totally down a cylinder (and you don't have to really take a ton apart for that, just unplug coils). But because even with water, you can have some combustion sometimes, depending on whether the plug is fouled/how much water, the drop test isn't definitive if you don't see a cylinder down. So if you don't see a cylinder down, I would also do a compression test. When you pull out the plugs, examine them for rust, but again, that's also not definitive. Do the compression test and see if a cylinder is low (it can be as little as 25 lbs lower than the others and leaking, so 175 versus 200). You might also use a borescope through the spark plug hole to see if any of the valves are rusty or there is obvious evidence of water in the cylinder.
Click to expand...
No water in there. All of the above checks out. Compression on all cylinders is between 220-223 psi.
 
I keep going over your posts looking for some things that haven't been looked at, and I can't come up with anything. I'm stumped.

Sanity check 1- those new plugs you installed were NGK IZFR6F11, correct? Those are the iridium tipped plugs that each typically costs $20 or more.

Sanity check 2 - you confirmed that the cavitation plate on the bottom of the engine is even with or slightly above the very bottom-most point of the transom, correct?

I will try to find some time today to review chapter 18 of my shop manual to see if some other idea pops up.
 
chawk_man said:
I keep going over your posts looking for some things that haven't been looked at, and I can't come up with anything. I'm stumped.

Sanity check 1- those new plugs you installed were NGK IZFR6F11, correct? Those are the iridium tipped plugs that each typically costs $20 or more.

Sanity check 2 - you confirmed that the cavitation plate on the bottom of the engine is even with or slightly above the very bottom-most point of the transom, correct?

I will try to find some time today to review chapter 18 of my shop manual to see if some other idea pops up.
Click to expand...
Sanity check #1- correct
Sanity check #2- correct
I did do a test last night. When I'm pushing down on thee throttle slowly, engine speeds up as it should until the throttle is half way down. Then it just ceases to speed up. It's almost like there is a governor on the engine that will allow the motor to get up and go no problem until it hits the "make-believe governor" then it don't matter how far you push the throttle, it just ain't going any faster.
 
But you previously verified that with the helm throttle lever full open, the throttle linkage at the engine is full forward against the "stop" as shown in the adjustment procedure I sent. Is that correct?
 
And have you looked at the plugs since fitting them?
That water in the AIB is "interesting" and maybe why the swirl flap had frozen.

Shame you don't run twins so you could swap ECMs.

Just a thought.... Your oil pressure light is working OK?
(I was just wondering whether it had failed and the engine was actually in limp mode without you knowing there was an issue")
 
Just going back a bit....initially you only got 12/13mph but then you put new filters in and then was getting 21mph - so you fixed something by changing the filters.
(Are you still getting that speed or has it deteriorated again?)
That, to me, does not indicate an ECM fault - it says that there's still something else in the fuel supply.
 
metal-chicken said:
And have you looked at the plugs since fitting them?
That water in the AIB is "interesting" and maybe why the swirl flap had frozen.

Shame you don't run twins so you could swap ECMs.

Just a thought.... Your oil pressure light is working OK?
(I was just wondering whether it had failed and the engine was actually in limp mode without you knowing there was an issue")
Click to expand...
Just rechecked plugs about 2 hours ago. All is good on that front.
Oil pressure light is working.
Lower unit and prop are good to go. Have tried multiple tried and true props with no change.
I didn't take my chart plotter yesterday so I don't know speed but it did not seem to be going any faster than 15mph again
 
This is a real head scratcher. I'm with Metal Chicken on this one. I really don't think it's your ECM. Check the fuel pressure first.

One other possibility that I rejected earlier is the fuel cut-off solenoid that is on the fuel line between the LP fuel pump and the VST. Maybe try bypassing it with a long piece of fuel line. There is a remote possibility that it could be hung up and restricting fuel flow. If you can do that bypass with a clear plastic fuel line and get someone to look for air bubbles while you are at WOT. The theory is that with the increased suction from the HP fuel pump at WOT, a marginal seal could be pulling in air.
 
Back
Top